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Trading Of Over The Counter Gold And Silver To Be Illegal Beginning July 15
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Trading Of Over The Counter Gold And Silver To Be Illegal Beginning July 15

  #21 (permalink)
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Some interesting observations in this presentation.
The Handbook of Human Ownership




This too..

Bretton Woods II - The Final Enslavement of Mankind

..

Every moment I wake up I realize I know nothing, and then I smile...
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  #22 (permalink)
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Zondor View Post
Thanks FT for taking on the shallow, mendacious and unbelievable bankster apologist arguments presented earlier.

Professor William K. Black among others makes a compelling case regarding who should be going to jail.

The list of those to whom credit is due must would have to include Ronald Reagan (not guilty by reason of senility?), William Simon, Milton Freidman, Alan Greenspan, Phil Gramm, Bob Rubin, Larry Summers, and the four Bushes: George HW, Bill, George W, and Barack.


Everybody who has power becomes guilty. The more you rely on institutions, the more you will be able to evade penalty. Dictators are really stupid, in the end they cannot blame somebody else. The 4 bushes can.

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  #23 (permalink)
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Fat Tails View Post
You have no answer to market failures, limits of self-regulation, mechanism design. You are repeating your religion, without having studied the subject. Could you please reply, how you want to cope with a prisoner's dilemma situation, the tragedy of the commons and moral hazard, which is a consequence of defection in free markets.



I absolutely agree with you. I am aware of Bill Clinton's National Homeownership Strategy. In 1997 purchase of non-GSE subprime mortgaged securities was up to $ 60 billion from $ 10 billion in 1991. This certainly was one of the foundations for the later problems that Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac ran into, before they had to be rescued with taxpayer's money.

However, this is not market regulation. It is interventionism. The soccer association is not supposed to select the players or run their own teams, they shall only set up the rules. The arbitre is not supposed to play and make a goal, but his role is to supervise the players. When the state directly or indirectly subsidizes any venture, this will mostly go wrong, if it can be done by private investors. But on the other side there are sectors, where the private sector cannot provide for an optimal solution. Again these are the cases where the Nash equilibrium will not lead to Pareto optimality. The best example in the US is education. Public education in the US is an expensive disaster.



Greenspan was put into office by a Republican president, but he cannot be blamed alone, as the Greenspan Put suggests. Abundant money also was the consequence of ever growing US trade deficitis. The money - useless abroad - was recycled into the US and significantly contributed to the disaster.



Agree. Abundant money was the trigger, obscure over-the-counter (we are back to the subject) instruments like CDOs and CDS acted as a catalyst. Actually the delayed the bursting of the bubble. Without CDS and CDO a medium sized bubble might have exploded in 2005, with the help of these obfuscators, the full dimension of the problem remained hidden until 2007.

OTC business is harmful due to lack of transparency and complications it brings along for managing counterparty risk. An open and transparent market for CDS and CDOs - both types of instruments being regulated - would not have avoided the bubble, but some of its consequences.

Okay, I can live with all that and I mostly agree. What you call "interventionism" I refer to as regulation. Technically, you'd be correct, but to the lay person (AND to the American politician) I think they're one in the same. When a politican says "regulation" what he really means is....let some bureacrat run it, because they can control it better than the free market.

I'm with you on SOME regulation. But I think that the best counter to greed is fear or other greed. Fear or greed for one's own money will prevent you from being a victim of someone else's greed. When you remove fear (through regulation) you allow people to put their guard down.....and that leaves them vulnerable to those who don't follow the rules.


Obviously in a perfect world, those who don't follow the rules would be discovered quickly, punished severly and removed from the system. In reality however, they are not.

So yes, I confuse socialist policy with economics, because in America, our politicians approach them the same way.

In America, if we have gun crime, they don't punish the criminal who uses guns more, they punish the guy who uses his guns legally with more restrictions (in an effort to try to prevent crime, they add more laws, which is a logical fallacy, criminals don't follow the law anyway, so what use is more laws?)

In America, if one person is screwing up the party by playing foul, instead of really hammering that guy and sending a message to everyone else about consequence, we alter the rules of the game to try to prevent his mischief and as a result, we make life more restrictive for those that play nice anyway AND we bring about unintended and often unanticipated consquences through second and third order effects.

I submit to you the "bonus debacle" that ensued on Wall Street after it became clear that we would bail out banks and LEGALLY we could not preclude banks from compensating their employees under the contractual agreements they had. (and we couldn't ask them to fire the idiots without exerting some sort of active stockholder/shareholder participation....essentially nationalizing the banks).

I think the government should provide a safe/regulated environment for people to trade....but if people wish to venture outside those safe havens and trade, that should be THEIR option and choice. However, when and if they get into trouble, they should be on their own.

The same is said for tourists at a beach. Why should I have to listen to a lifeguard? I didn't ask for him to be there? what if I want to swim further out than he/she can see? It should be and is my God given right and liberty to make my own choices, some of which may seem more risky/harmful than the government may allow.

The problem with that is the socialization of bad outcomes. Society doesn't like reading about people drowning. Furthermore, our liberal effing court system and the ACLU have made it so that even if I sign a waiver saying I don't want nor need a lifeguard (and their restrictions) that I can still sue the ever loving hell out of them if something goes badly for me.

In a "perfect" world, the guy that doesn't want or need a lifeguard should be permitted to drown himself. Then, when others are informed of his indiscretion, it will serve as a warning and encourage them to VOLUNTARILY restrict their own behavior so that they do not bring the same risk onto themselves. It's perfect, people behaving responsibly, NOT BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT OR SOME OUTSIDE ENTITY FORCED THEM TO, BUT BECAUSE THEY ARE MAKING A PERSONAL CHOICE.

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  #24 (permalink)
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OANDA and XAU/XAG

I just got this email from OANDA... which is more accurate than what 0hedge states, IMO..

-----

Dear XXXXX XXXXXXXX,

As a result of the recently enacted Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, U.S.-based retail forex dealers such as OANDA are prohibited from offering leveraged trading in precious metals to retail clients after Friday, July 15, 2011.

As a client based in the U.S., you will not be able to trade our four precious metal pairs (XAU/USD, XAG/USD, XAU/JPY, XAG/JPY) on a leveraged basis, effective end of day July 15. Leveraged trading in other currency pairs will remain unaffected, with the same margin requirements.

You will still be able to trade precious metals, but only on a 1:1 non-leveraged basis (requiring substantially more margin). If you do not have sufficient margin to cover your open metal positions in full, you need to reduce your exposure to gold and silver pairs before end of day July 15, or risk a margin call of all your open positions when this change is implemented.

We sincerely regret any inconvenience caused by this change in legal requirements. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact our Customer Service Team at frontdesk@oanda.com.

We appreciate your business with OANDA.

- The OANDA fxTrade Team


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Why is this change required?

Effective the end of Friday, July 15, 2011, Retail Foreign Exchange Dealers (RFEDs) registered with the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) will be prohibited from offering leveraged retail trading in commodities, including precious metals such as gold and silver. This change in the U.S. law is being enforced by the CFTC as an outcome of The Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act.

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  #25 (permalink)
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Zondor View Post
Thanks FT for taking on the shallow, mendacious and unbelievable bankster apologist arguments presented earlier.

Professor William K. Black among others makes a compelling case regarding who should be going to jail.

The list of those to whom credit is due must would have to include Ronald Reagan (not guilty by reason of senility?), William Simon, Milton Freidman, Alan Greenspan, Phil Gramm, Bob Rubin, Larry Summers, and the four Bushes: George HW, Bill, George W, and Barack.

No offense , Zondor, I respect your work and all... but... you do realize Ronald Reagan is still dead ... right... you can't convict a dead person... ask Kenneth Lay's widow... although dead people have been allowed to run for political office in Texas... I think some actually got elected... and dead people seem to vote in every Texas election....


"Not intended to be a factual statement" Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl (R-AZ)

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  #26 (permalink)
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tellytub View Post
Trading Of Over The Counter Gold And Silver To Be Illegal Beginning July 15 | zero hedge

if this is true, it just confirms this market is sooooo corrupt and manipulated


This is actually old news, but seeing this post does reignite my absolute disdain for hypocritical politicians who assume to know more about how I need to run my life, than I do.

For the Retail Currency Traders, Frank/Dodd was a blow to common sense and better judgment, both at the same time. They took away 100:1 leverage as maximum allowable in a Retail account - as if that would somehow change the net/net risk level that any trader could build-into their trade. Or, as if the trader could not simply increase their gross cost basis per trade. Then, they went after "precious metals" altogether - so Gold and Silver, are gone just like that for the Retail Trader.

After the economic implosion of 2008, the United States Congress was pressured by The People to make sure that such an event would never happen again, under the same set of circumstances. Rather than actually deal with the problem by re-instituting the substantive and relevant portions of Glass/Steagal, Frank and Dodd, decided to play a game of smoke and mirrors with the American People, by telling them that Congress was working in "real regulatory change in response to 2008."

So, when it comes time to start-up the campaigns once again for 2012, Congressional Representatives from around the nation will go back home and say to their constituents: See what we did for you! We authored real financial regulation on your behalf. Now, go ahead and re-elect us because we helped to protect you and our economy from future systemic failure! Aren't we good politicians!

Of course, the rank and file electorate "back home" won't ever take the time to actually read the relevant portions of Frank/Dodd, or figure out that lowering Retail Forex leverage from 100:1 down to 50:1 has absolutely zero to do with the kind of bank regulation and/or Wall Street regulation that would be necessary to prevent another 2008 from happening again, nor will the rank and file "back home" ever know that the elimination of Gold and Silver contracts on Retail trading platforms in the U.S., has absolutely zero to do with their 401k or their sub-prime mortgage. Of course, not. Both Frank and Dodd, including all the other congressional smoke and mirror pros who signed-on to such pointless legislation know it too.

This is how the American People keep getting smoked by their government. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing and both hands end up in the cookie jar for completely different reasons.

Frank/Dodd (for the most part) was about noting more than political smoke and mirrors. The fact that we still don't have anything even remotely close to Glass/Steagal is proof positive of that fact. Frank/Dodd, forces U.S. Traders to to do business with brokers and FCMs that the Congress has ordained. In that respect, Frank/Dodd forces retail commerce decisions for U.S. Citizens. It tells you who you can do business with and what that business relationship should be. Frank/Dodd, reaches into your personal financial life and dictates where you can deposit your funds, who you can engage for currency transactions and how much leverage your currency intermediary is allowed to offer you - regardless of your capacity to determine these matter for yourself.

All the while, Frank/Dodd gives Congress something to point at when the American People ask them what they did to prevent another 2008. A total hoax.

Gramm/Leach/Bliley, is still in effect and the United States of America is still subject to Toxic Waste material wearing the clothing of mortgages and all manner of worthless CDO paper, not to mention the massive and catastrophic impact that our Unfunded Pension paper will have on our economy once that stuff starts coming due in droves. But, sure - tell a trader that in effect they can't use a foreign bank for Forex transactions unless that bank flips through new regulatory hoops, or that they can't trade Gold and Silver over-the-counter, and that's somehow calculated as being real regulatory reform.

Did I say total hoax. Because if I did not, then let me make sure I say it loud and clear: Frank/Dodd = Total Hoax on the American People.

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  #27 (permalink)
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This is actually old news, but seeing this post does reignite my absolute disdain for hypocritical politicians who assume to know more about how I need to run my life, than I do.

For the Retail Currency Traders, Frank/Dodd was a blow to common sense and better judgment, both at the same time. They took away 100:1 leverage as maximum allowable in a Retail account - as if that would somehow change the net/net risk level that any trader could build-into their trade. Or, as if the trader could not simply increase their gross cost basis per trade. Then, they went after "precious metals" altogether - so Gold and Silver, are gone just like that for the Retail Trader.

After the economic implosion of 2008, the United States Congress was pressured by The People to make sure that such an event would never happen again, under the same set of circumstances. Rather than actually deal with the problem by re-instituting the substantive and relevant portions of Glass/Steagal, Frank and Dodd, decided to play a game of smoke and mirrors with the American People, by telling them that Congress was working in "real regulatory change in response to 2008."

So, when it comes time to start-up the campaigns once again for 2012, Congressional Representatives from around the nation will go back home and say to their constituents: See what we did for you! We authored real financial regulation on your behalf. Now, go ahead and re-elect us because we helped to protect you and our economy from future systemic failure! Aren't we good politicians!

Of course, the rank and file electorate "back home" won't ever take the time to actually read the relevant portions of Frank/Dodd, or figure out that lowering Retail Forex leverage from 100:1 down to 50:1 has absolutely zero to do with the kind of bank regulation and/or Wall Street regulation that would be necessary to prevent another 2008 from happening again, nor will the rank and file "back home" ever know that the elimination of Gold and Silver contracts on Retail trading platforms in the U.S., has absolutely zero to do with their 401k or their sub-prime mortgage. Of course, not. Both Frank and Dodd, including all the other congressional smoke and mirror pros who signed-on to such pointless legislation know it too.

This is how the American People keep getting smoked by their government. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing and both hands end up in the cookie jar for completely different reasons.

Frank/Dodd (for the most part) was about noting more than political smoke and mirrors. The fact that we still don't have anything even remotely close to Glass/Steagal is proof positive of that fact. Frank/Dodd, forces U.S. Traders to to do business with brokers and FCMs that the Congress has ordained. In that respect, Frank/Dodd forces retail commerce decisions for U.S. Citizens. It tells you who you can do business with and what that business relationship should be. Frank/Dodd, reaches into your personal financial life and dictates where you can deposit your funds, who you can engage for currency transactions and how much leverage your currency intermediary is allowed to offer you - regardless of your capacity to determine these matter for yourself.

All the while, Frank/Dodd gives Congress something to point at when the American People ask them what they did to prevent another 2008. A total hoax.

Gramm/Leach/Bliley, is still in effect and the United States of America is still subject to Toxic Waste material wearing the clothing of mortgages and all manner of worthless CDO paper, not to mention the massive and catastrophic impact that our Unfunded Pension paper will have on our economy once that stuff starts coming due in droves. But, sure - tell a trader that in effect they can't use a foreign bank for Forex transactions unless that bank flips through new regulatory hoops, or that they can't trade Gold and Silver over-the-counter, and that's somehow calculated as being real regulatory reform.

Did I say total hoax. Because if I did not, then let me make sure I say it loud and clear: Frank/Dodd = Total Hoax on the American People.

Again, I go back to the same themes....socialism and elitism.

Socialism is essentially distribution of bad outcomes. "Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth. Socialism is the equal distribution of poverty." W Churchill.

In the modern media age, people have become obsessed and absolutely forced to confront the notion and idea that there are a LOT of people out there doing better than they are. In every facet from our perception of beauty, to our perception of prosperity, the media has altered our perspective. Men are constantly confronted with gorgeous women on TV, in magazines, etc. And women wonder why men have such unrealistic expectations of what a woman should look like. If she doesn't have breast implants, a super model figure and perfect teeth, then she dosen't live up to the image most men have in their head.

The same is true for prosperity. The 90's were abash with shows like "Cribs", now we have shows like "Real Houswives of...." and "Millionare matchmaker." These shows are popular for numerous reasons, but at the core of the issue is that they play on popular desire to see "how the other side lives." People are fascinated by watching people with wealth (or seeing into that realm.) And at the same time, they're constantly confronted with the notion that..."Other people have more money than you." Gone are the days when children were asked what they wanted to be when they grew up and they replied..."Astronaut, Fireman, Policeman, Doctor, Race Car Driver, Army guy, Doctor, etc." That has been replaced with 2 distinct answers. Ask any teenage girl what she wants to be when she grows up and you'll invariably get a singular response. Anything to do with celebrity attention and wealth. (aka a model, a singer, or an actress). Ask any teenage boy and you'll get a similar response...."Rapper, Pro Athlete, etc). Gone are the days when the notion that prosperity was a destination most reasonably achieved through hard work and commitment (i.e. being an engineer, or a doctor or a lawyer). Girls all want to be models, boys all want to be rappers. Why? Because it's the "get rich quick" aspect of our media culture.

Policians and the current regime of elitist/socialist have harnessed this phenomenon. They villify those with money and play to the populist sentiment that "hey, if you're poor, it's okay, it's not your fault you didn't make it as an aspiring rapper.....the government SHOULD be there to take care of you." The reason I include my diatribe above is because it's crucial in the socialist bridge. When you combine a widespread sentiment that there's a whole lot of people that have more than me (i.e. jelousy and envy) with the villification of those who have those things....populist ideas and socialist ideologues thrive.

The other part that's shocking is the elitist nature of the current political left. That somehow, the government knows what's better for you than you do.

Again, all of this stems from an idea and a notion that it's your RIGHT to prosper (not JUST your right to pursue it). Democrats aren't satisfied with equal opportunity....they will not stop until there's equal OUTCOME.

When you combine all those things, you end up with a government that is always selling doom and gloom to the public to strip them of their liberty. What's liberty to the guy that has nothing? That's how you end up with the government trying to run everything....and PREVENT individuals from failing.

Democrats and bureacrats want everyone to succeed by a negative operator....we'll achieve universal success by ensuring that no one fails. That should work. And if anyone fails, we'll prevent it through socializing that aspect (by taking from those with wealth) or by regulating people out of their liberties until they are incapable of failing (and at the same time, incapable of doing ANYTHING the government deems as risking failure).

This is how we end up in a state of affairs where you cannot drive a car, open a bank account, start a fire, dig a well, sell a product, kill a tree, bury your own pet, modify your home, own a home, own a car or a boat, open a business, have a child, educate your child, etc, etc...without the governments knowledge and or permission.

When you really stop to think about it, there's not a whole lot other than trivial things you can do without first asking permission or paying the government for the privelage of doing so.

This all stems from socialism. When people decide to enact laws to restrict behavior in an effort to "prevent" failure....that's socialism. We're distributing the failure of a select few, onto the multitude. It's a form of universal "insurance."

Granted, for a modern society to survive, we must have some sense of civility and order. But the biggest problem we have today is absence of the notion that people should be allowed to fail.

Instead of letting people lose their lunch in heavily leveraged markets/instruments, we'll just make it illegal. That way no one can fail. The problem is that no one fails <> everyone wins. And eventually "a fool and his money are soon parted." If someone is going to lose their money trading currencies or metals, outlawing it will only force them into some other unprosperous venture. It's the age old notion that gambling should be outlawed....

I fully support laws which restrict individuals from directly harming others, but what makes me scratch my head is when the government decides to restrict the freedoms of individuals because they might hurt themselves (or INDIRECTLY hurt others). We're not going to let you do illicit drugs.....no one can fail. We're not going to let you trade leveraged instruments....no one can fail (AND, if enough of you fail together, it'll hurt everyone.).

I'll end by using the same quote...."A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something that can be learned in no other way." -M Twain.

The only way to prevent people from failing is to let them fail and let others see it. Trying to prevent it or redirect it is like trying to hold back running water....eventually it has to go somewhere and it usually finds a way.

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  #28 (permalink)
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off topic

I guess the moderators are asleep.... lots of offtopic posts on this subject having nothing to do with the OP...

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  #29 (permalink)
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I guess the moderators are asleep.... lots of offtopic posts on this subject having nothing to do with the OP...

Please use the report post feature to report posts to the mods -- it's the yellow exclamation icon to the right of posts.

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Moderator Note


Let's get back on topic please. The topic was OTC trading of silver and gold being made illegal.




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