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Kinetick vs IB tick data


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Kinetick vs IB tick data

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  #1 (permalink)
 togier 
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ok, just need the honest truth on Kinetick. Is there that much of a difference between the tick data you receive from IB and Kinetick. If yes, what would I notice that is so different? Thanks.

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 serac 
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I second the same question. Would be interested to hear thoughts/experiences.

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Huge difference betweek Kinetick & IB.

IB doesn't have tick data in any meaningful sense.
Zenfire has tick data but their L1 stream/Time & Sales doesn't properly capture the condition (at bid, at ask etc).
Kinetick has tick data (it's DTN.IQ repackaged) and it is matched up perfectly from what I can see.

Note that I did comparisons of Zenfire & Kinetick side by side and Kinetick is a better feed. Still - depending on what you use, you might not need that accuracy.

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 monpere 
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DionysusToast View Post
Huge difference betweek Kinetick & IB.

IB doesn't have tick data in any meaningful sense.
Zenfire has tick data but their L1 stream/Time & Sales doesn't properly capture the condition (at bid, at ask etc).
Kinetick has tick data (it's DTN.IQ repackaged) and it is matched up perfectly from what I can see.

Note that I did comparisons of Zenfire & Kinetick side by side and Kinetick is a better feed. Still - depending on what you use, you might not need that accuracy.

Yeah, feed X is 175% more accurate then feed Y, but is it gonna make you any money? Unless you are trading some high frequency black box arbitrage system, or auto trading for 2 ticks at a time hundreds of times a day, or unless you know your system will crash and burn if your bid/ask volume is off by 12 contracts, then I don't think it matters much at all. I am a scalper, scalping for 6 ticks targets on range bars using Interactive Brokers, and have been doing for years with no issues. So, if you are a trend trader looking for 40 tick targets, I say save your money on super duper feeds.

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I agree with you to an extent Monpere - but there are scenarios where this can trip you up - mostly if you are using DOM/T&S to confirm entries.

What you generally see with Zenfire, is when the market gathers pace and moves up through a level, you will see a series of prints going off on the wrong side. One of the things I look for specifically is large traders joining in a move. If you see a number 1000+ tick prints at certain times, then it gives you a good additional confirmation. The problem is - if you are seeing those prints on the wrong side, then it's going to catch you out.

So - whilst I agree - a tick here or a tick there is irrelevant, if you rely on Time & Sales at key inflection points, then Zenfire is going to catch you out and IB will be worse than useless.

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  #7 (permalink)
 MetalTrade 
 
 
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My trading is based on correct bid/ask data. I got false signals with Zenfire. I have correct signals with DNT/IQfeed.

As far as I know only 3 datafeeds fit my criteria : CQG, DTN/IQfeed and Esignal.

These 3 are made to provide you with correct data for charting.

All others IMHO like IB, Zenfire, TT, Rithmic are ordering datafeeds and should be used to place your orders on, not to create your charts. I wish it wasn't like that. I wish the free datafeed was great and perfect, unfortunately it's not.

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Kinetick = DTN/IQ rebundled, so they are fine. It's a slightly cheaper option if you just want the CME waiver symbols.

What is interesting is that Tradestation is actually spot on in terms of bid/ask too. I don't use it any more but I did test it & compare with the other feeds and Tradestation is in lockstep with Kinetick.

Shame it locks up when there's an announcement really....

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 Big Mike 
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togier View Post
ok, just need the honest truth on Kinetick. Is there that much of a difference between the tick data you receive from IB and Kinetick. If yes, what would I notice that is so different? Thanks.

Accurate tick data from IB is not possible. Accurate tick data from DTN (Kinetick) is a given, it is pretty much the best there is. If you aren't using tick data and are trading only equities on 5 minute charts, then IB data is "good enough" most likely. But if you are using tick data, then you owe it to yourself to use good tick data -- which is not IB.

IB filters data, it's called snapshot data, it means they are only sending some of the information. Do you want to read a book with some pages missing? You don't know if what is on those pages is important or not, so it is best to read the book with all the pages.

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 Big Mike 
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BTW, a good thread with data feed comparisons is here:


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 aviat72 
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Unless you are doing market delta studies, the IB feed is good enough for price. IIRC, the 5 second bars sent from IB have the accurate volume also but no bid-ask split. I am not sure how your charting software will use that information though, but if you are writing your own code you can use the 5 second bars to get accurate volume.

The one HUGE advantage of the IB feed is that it is sampled so you get the latest price every 50-100 ms even during periods of high volatility. Many tick-true feeds choke up during periods of high volatility. Or even if the feed can keep up with the pace of the tape, your software may choke because it has to process too many ticks in a very short period of time. This is especially true if you have code which recalculates on every incoming tick.

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  #12 (permalink)
 MetalTrade 
 
 
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The one HUGE advantage of the IB feed is that it is sampled so you get the latest price every 50-100 ms even during periods of high volatility. Many tick-true feeds choke up during periods of high volatility. Or even if the feed can keep up with the pace of the tape, your software may choke because it has to process too many ticks in a very short period of time. This is especially true if you have code which recalculates on every incoming tick.

Hello, that only happens during high-impact news once in a while, and that advantage is useless for me and it should be useless for most traders since I don't trade 10 minutes before news and 15 minutes after news.

If the markets are jumping during news very heavily, you know what I mean, why in the hell do you want to trade that ? It's un-tradable. Trading that is suicide and I need to meet the first trader who can trade heavy jumping market under very heavy news conditions.

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 mmllpp2009 
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MetalTrade View Post
Hello, that only happens during high-impact news once in a while, and that advantage is useless for me and it should be useless for most traders since I don't trade 10 minutes before news and 15 minutes after news.

If the markets are jumping during news very heavily, you know what I mean, why in the hell do you want to trade that ? It's un-tradable. Trading that is suicide and I need to meet the first trader who can trade heavy jumping market under very heavy news conditions.

Im a newbie, could u tell me if ur happy with TT/DTN-iQFEED for a range bar chart?
I was thinking of IB, but not sure yet

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 MetalTrade 
 
 
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mmllpp2009 View Post
Im a newbie, could u tell me if ur happy with TT/DTN-iQFEED for a range bar chart?
I was thinking of IB, but not sure yet

Hello, it depends on your exact type of trading. The TT datafeed I use is for ordering currently on sierracharts DOM and the DTN/IQFeed is for charting because I need correct bid/ask data.

If your new, please read many threads here about starting to trade and please go on SIM for many months before starting with your real money. You will lose it all otherwise. Thanks

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 monpere 
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aviat72 View Post
Unless you are doing market delta studies, the IB feed is good enough for price. IIRC, the 5 second bars sent from IB have the accurate volume also but no bid-ask split. I am not sure how your charting software will use that information though, but if you are writing your own code you can use the 5 second bars to get accurate volume.

The one HUGE advantage of the IB feed is that it is sampled so you get the latest price every 50-100 ms even during periods of high volatility. Many tick-true feeds choke up during periods of high volatility. Or even if the feed can keep up with the pace of the tape, your software may choke because it has to process too many ticks in a very short period of time. This is especially true if you have code which recalculates on every incoming tick.

I can't imagine how a 50ms snapshot of the market can make a difference to me using IB, when it takes me 15 seconds to make a decision on a trade, and another 2.5 seconds to reach for the mouse. And I trade more then everyone on this forum. I will normally take 15 to 30 trades per day. To be fair, I don't use bid/ask, and I don't use volume in my trading, and I also trade ETF's as well as Futures. Do any of the other feeds offer equities? that is the main determinant for me to consider a new feed?

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 togier 
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Big Mike View Post
Accurate tick data from IB is not possible. Accurate tick data from DTN (Kinetick) is a given, it is pretty much the best there is. If you aren't using tick data and are trading only equities on 5 minute charts, then IB data is "good enough" most likely. But if you are using tick data, then you owe it to yourself to use good tick data -- which is not IB.

IB filters data, it's called snapshot data, it means they are only sending some of the information. Do you want to read a book with some pages missing? You don't know if what is on those pages is important or not, so it is best to read the book with all the pages.

Mike

Thanks, this was very helpful. I am trading the EUR/USD using an automated strategy and wasn't sure if it made a difference. I've signed up and I will give it a try for a month or so to see how it works.

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togier View Post
Thanks, this was very helpful. I am trading the EUR/USD using an automated strategy and wasn't sure if it made a difference. I've signed up and I will give it a try for a month or so to see how it works.

If you are trading Forex & not the 6E futures contract - forget getting tick data off anyone.

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  #18 (permalink)
trigon
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I would like to ask you something. I know that comparing IB tick data versus IQ feed for example is like compare Mercedes S versus Vauxhall Astra.... But I have noticed a strange thing.

I am on IB datafeed for TF (rusell 2000). I have MultiCharts 7 on one computer and Multicharts DT on another PC. One of them is connected to my live account with IB and second one is connected to my paper trading account with IB. So here is the summary:

1. PC: MultiCharts 7 Beta; IB live datafeed; TFM1 (rusell 2000); 6 point range
2. PC: MultiCharts 7 DT; IB paper datafeed; TFM1 (rusell 2000); 6 point range

And the problem is both of them are on IB and should take the same data but there is huge difference between data even when there is exactly the same settings on both PC's. So I know tick data from IB are far from reality but I don't understand the difference between two exactly same datafeeds at the same time...

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trigon View Post
I have MultiCharts 7 on one computer and Multicharts DT on another PC. One of them is connected to my live account with IB and second one is connected to my paper trading account with IB.

Maybe that is the difference.

But I wouldn't spend much time on this, IB tick data is not worth spending time on...

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 skann 
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monpere View Post
Yeah, feed X is 175% more accurate then feed Y, but is it gonna make you any money? Unless you are trading some high frequency black box arbitrage system, or auto trading for 2 ticks at a time hundreds of times a day, or unless you know your system will crash and burn if your bid/ask volume is off by 12 contracts, then I don't think it matters much at all. I am a scalper, scalping for 6 ticks targets on range bars using Interactive Brokers, and have been doing for years with no issues. So, if you are a trend trader looking for 40 tick targets, I say save your money on super duper feeds.

How do you catch up with the indicators, when you use IB Range data?

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 Blister 
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I have been using NT with kinetick and IB.

I would like to know which data source is used for actually entering trades via DOM for example?

If kinetick data doesn't perfectly match IB, what good is the data at the moment of truth?

Hopefully my question is clear.

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 Big Mike 
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Blister View Post
I have been using NT with kinetick and IB.

I would like to know which data source is used for actually entering trades via DOM for example?

If kinetick data doesn't perfectly match IB, what good is the data at the moment of truth?

Hopefully my question is clear.

There is a specific order in which you need to connect to your data feeds in NinjaTrader. I cannot remember what it is, so someone else will have to comment.

But with the right order, what will happen is that your charts are built with Kinetick data. As for how the DOM is built, actually that's a great question and I don't think I know the answer or have ever read the answer. Obviously the DOM is executed on your broker feed, but as for where the L1 and L2 data is coming from that is displayed on the DOM itself, I do not know. You might need to ask @NinjaTrader.

As for data not matching -- IB data is notoriously poor, this is especially true for any type of chart built on actual tick data (tick chart, volume chart, any kind of non-time based chart more or less). So they aren't going to match. What happens is IB is filtering data in order to lower their resource requirements on their end. But as far as price matching/fill price at the time you submit an order, it will be fine.

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 Blister 
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Thanks mike, I actually asked this question of NT indirectly. But I was dealing with a first level support tech I'm sure,
I'm aware of the connection order significance.

You are right about the orders I think. They are resident on IBs servers.




Big Mike View Post
There is a specific order in which you need to connect to your data feeds in NinjaTrader. I cannot remember what it is, so someone else will have to comment.

But with the right order, what will happen is that your charts are built with Kinetick data. As for how the DOM is built, actually that's a great question and I don't think I know the answer or have ever read the answer. Obviously the DOM is executed on your broker feed, but as for where the L1 and L2 data is coming from that is displayed on the DOM itself, I do not know. You might need to ask @NinjaTrader.

As for data not matching -- IB data is notoriously poor, this is especially true for any type of chart built on actual tick data (tick chart, volume chart, any kind of non-time based chart more or less). So they aren't going to match. What happens is IB is filtering data in order to lower their resource requirements on their end. But as far as price matching/fill price at the time you submit an order, it will be fine.

Mike


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 Fadi 
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Hi
I also use NinaTrader 7 on an IB account and Kinetick datafeed; maybe I can share some of my findings experimenting with the various setups

First, it is fundamental that you connect to Kinetick first, and then to IB.
This will allow you to populate the charts and DOM with Kinetick data, otherwise it will be used as a backup only if that's setup this way in the connection configuration menu.

Also, if you go into the connection setup menu for your IB feed, I usually chose not to use the historical data from IB servers, this ensures that previous candles are only fed from Kinetick, and this speeds up the loading of your charts somehow and avoid many of the errors you can get from IB servers when accessing older data.

Another thing, if you do not subscribe to L2 from Kinetick for example, when you first connect the Kinetick feed, you will have nothing in the DOM and market depth/time&sales windows obviously. But when you connect the IB feed, these three windows will be populated with data from IB

I've used that setup for long time to save on the $20 per month that Kinetick charges for market depth.
The L2 as far as I was concerned was very accurate with IB, but I don't know check for yourself.

Finally, Whenever you place an order through NT7 it goes directly on the IB server and stays there, so you need not be concerned with what data is populating your DOM and so on if you are not buying at market... and even if you are buying at market, the order will still route through IB of course, and they would fill you at any available market price regardless of what you see in your DOM and on your charts; and regardless of what datafeed is used to populate either of the two.

If you have other questions, or need further clarifications, please do not hesitate to ask

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 Robert Carrillo 
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Just my .02 on this subject. If one is placing trades from NT DOM populated with IB data, what is the purpose in paying $50/mo for Kinetick chart data? Why not use IB for both?

Asked another way, if one sees value in having charts fed with true tick data (unfiltered and TCP), where is the value in placing actual trades (your $) via DOM using data (filtered and UDP) you don't want for your charts?

Seems to me another $20/mo for Market Depth/Level 2 so that Kinetick populates the DOM just makes sense, whether trading sim or live.

To the best of my knowledge, when a trade fires in NT DOM using Kinetick data, it fires at the Kinetick price, and doesn't care what IB thinks the current price is.

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 Blister 
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Excellent question.

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John
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 sands 
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Any more thoughts on this question.

And what are the current costs for having IB for execution and Kinetick for (i) level II price depth and (ii) with the CME markets (e.g., those that are part of the waiver program).

I'm essentially looking to start trading on NT with this setup and as the thread is a bit old I'm hoping to find out if this is still the best option. And what is the average cost other users are experiencing.

Any helpful comments appreciated.

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 bd92154 
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sands View Post
What are the current costs for having IB for execution and Kinetick for (i) level II price depth and (ii) with the CME markets (e.g., those that are part of the waiver program).

I'm essentially looking to start trading on NT with this setup and as the thread is a bit old I'm hoping to find out if this is still the best option. And what is the average cost other users are experiencing.

I use Kinetick for TICK and IB for Level II for ES trading.
So far IB has not charged for Level II only on ES.

Here is my Kinetick Bill for JUNE 2014:


I've had some issues in past with Kinetick feed stopping may be due to my platform, may be due to Kinetick. That did not bother me to much.


Also I have seen times where Kinetick does not agree with other providers. Today, my latest, was when Volume was way off for June 2014 contract in relation to CME data. I am still working to chase that one to ground.


Depending on the explanation I get will help me determine to continue or not with Kinetick.
In the past my problems were primarily due to my own inexperience, and granted I still have a long way to go.

Oh since the DOM gets its data from Level II I am fairly certain that my DOM (even though I don't use often as I find I way overtrade in the DOM) gets its feed from IB as I don't pay for Kinetick Level II. Yes the order of connect is important. I have to connect Kinetick first and then IB.

As you can see I'm still wrestling with the issue of Kinetick as a data provider as well. Just no magic ball and since everything runs at blink rate it is tough to know if you really saw what you thought you saw. Well today I know I did as pictures don't lie, and both CME and KINETICK data was captured from a simple screen capture at the same time.


Hope this helps some.

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 sands 
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I've looked into the costs more since I last posted and think Kinetic offers a great option cost wise however am disappointed that its NT only service, as I'd ideally like to use elsewhere. Which I guess will push me to an alternative e.g., CQG or DTN.

Thanks for the feedback.

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 Big Mike 
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I've looked into the costs more since I last posted and think Kinetic offers a great option cost wise however am disappointed that its NT only service, as I'd ideally like to use elsewhere. Which I guess will push me to an alternative e.g., CQG or DTN.

Thanks for the feedback.

Kinetick is just a cheaper version of IQFeed for NinjaTrader. Just use IQFeed directly if you use more than NinjaTrader. There is also a discount for Elite Members.

Mike

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