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Where can I trade BTC FUTURES, and what are margin amounts


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Where can I trade BTC FUTURES, and what are margin amounts

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  #1 (permalink)
Cyprus, Nico
 
 
Posts: 30 since Mar 2019
Thanks: 9 given, 8 received

Hello,

I'd like to ask :

1) where (broker) can I trade BTC (BitCoin) futures and what is the necessary starting capital (margin) and required margin maintenance ? Every trade enters with 2 contracts (simultaneously) but with different targets. My platform is NinjaTrader 7 and I use for my trading (BTC futures) my fully automatic strategy (coded by me). This strategy is extremely profitable. I exclude NinjaTrader brokerage for other reasons.
2) Collective 2 demands $400K (!!!) for such a trade (I have written proofs about this demand). This is an astronomical margin. I dont know why these guys are doing this (BTW I have bad experience with these guys - they dont tell the truth).
3) Is there any other company (like Collective 2) via which I can do the above trading for BTC futures ?
4) I am a trader && Trading systems developer for more than 20 years.

Any reply will be much appreciated.

Thank you.

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  #2 (permalink)
Legendary Systematic Algo Trader
Somewhere, Delawhere, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradeStation, MultiCharts
Broker: TS Securities, OANDA
Trading: Energies
 
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ellinas View Post
Hello,

I'd like to ask :

1) where (broker) can I trade BTC (BitCoin) futures and what is the necessary starting capital (margin) and required margin maintenance ? Every trade enters with 2 contracts (simultaneously) but with different targets. My platform is NinjaTrader 7 and I use for my trading (BTC futures) my fully automatic strategy (coded by me). This strategy is extremely profitable. I exclude NinjaTrader brokerage for other reasons.
2) Collective 2 demands $400K (!!!) for such a trade (I have written proofs about this demand). This is an astronomical margin. I dont know why these guys are doing this (BTW I have bad experience with these guys - they dont tell the truth).
3) Is there any other company (like Collective 2) via which I can do the above trading for BTC futures ?
4) I am a trader && Trading systems developer for more than 20 years.

Any reply will be much appreciated.

Thank you.

You can trade BTC futures through probably any broker that trades on CME, ICE and/or CBOE. I don't know where your account is located or where you want it to be located, but look around. TradeStation here in the US offers BTC futures contracts on various exchanges.

Here is the CME site: https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/cryptocurrency-indices.html. Margin right now is about $15k.

~vmodus

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  #3 (permalink)
Cyprus, Nico
 
 
Posts: 30 since Mar 2019
Thanks: 9 given, 8 received



vmodus View Post
You can trade BTC futures through probably any broker that trades on CME, ICE and/or CBOE. I don't know where your account is located or where you want it to be located, but look around. TradeStation here in the US offers BTC futures contracts on various exchanges.

Here is the CME site: https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/cryptocurrency-indices.html. Margin right now is about $15k.

~vmodus

vmodus
Thank you for your reply. I have to say that not any broker offers BTC futures trading. I found only 2 as of today.
By the way, does anybody have any experience about this Collective 2 ? It seems to me they are liers, unproffessional and probably scams. They do not reply to emails (sometimes you have to wait more than 10 days for a reply) and definetely they do not even apologize for their mistakes. I definitely do not recommend them.

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  #4 (permalink)
Legendary Systematic Algo Trader
Somewhere, Delawhere, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradeStation, MultiCharts
Broker: TS Securities, OANDA
Trading: Energies
 
vmodus's Avatar
 
Posts: 955 since Feb 2017
Thanks: 1,940 given, 1,888 received


ellinas View Post
vmodus
Thank you for your reply. I have to say that not any broker offers BTC futures trading. I found only 2 as of today.
By the way, does anybody have any experience about this Collective 2 ? It seems to me they are liers, unproffessional and probably scams. They do not reply to emails (sometimes you have to wait more than 10 days for a reply) and definetely they do not even apologize for their mistakes. I definitely do not recommend them.

Just search this site for Collective2 and you can find a number of threads that might help you gain more knowledge about them.

~vmodus

~vmodus

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  #5 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Houston, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Trading Technologies
Broker: Primary Advantage Futures. Also ED&F and Tradestation
Trading: Primarily Energy but also a little ES, GE, GC, SI & Bitcoin
 
Posts: 3,781 since Dec 2013
Thanks: 3,059 given, 7,315 received

Finding a Broker to clear CME Bitcoin (contract size 5 coins) is a lot easier than ICE Bitcoin (contract size 1 coin). The three brokers I know best (Advantage, ED&F, FC Stone) all clear CME but I think only ED&F clear ICE. Of course these are all institutional or large prop trader FCMs and not primarily retail focused so that may be why they offer it.

Margin on both is 37% of notional. So with Bitcoin at $9,400 a CME contract is $47,000 notional so $17,390 in margin. ICE would be a fifth of that or $3,478.

Liquidity is a lot better on CME than ICE but I personally think the ICE contract is a better contract since a) it offers better physical delivery versus CME's financial settlement and b) CME doesn't have implication switched on, so if your trading anything other than prompt month your probably trading with an Algo that is arbing you for a profit.

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  #6 (permalink)
Cyprus, Nico
 
 
Posts: 30 since Mar 2019
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SMCJB View Post
Finding a Broker to clear CME Bitcoin (contract size 5 coins) is a lot easier than ICE Bitcoin (contract size 1 coin). The three brokers I know best (Advantage, ED&F, FC Stone) all clear CME but I think only ED&F clear ICE. Of course these are all institutional or large prop trader FCMs and not primarily retail focused so that may be why they offer it.

Margin on both is 37% of notional. So with Bitcoin at $9,400 a CME contract is $47,000 notional so $17,390 in margin. ICE would be a fifth of that or $3,478.

Liquidity is a lot better on CME than ICE but I personally think the ICE contract is a better contract since a) it offers better physical delivery versus CME's financial settlement and b) CME doesn't have implication switched on, so if your trading anything other than prompt month your probably trading with an Algo that is arbing you for a profit.

Hello SMCJB,

thank you very much for your valuable reply.
As a retail trader, trading 2 contracts/trade via my NinjaTrader NT7 platform (CQG data provider for BTC futures), do you think that Philips may be another alternative ?
Currently, I am trading (with my NT7) BTC futures (2 contracts) on CME. I wonder if I can easily change to ICE with lower margin ($3,478 X 2) and, if yes, how?
Another thing I am looking at is if and where (Brokers - Clearing Firms) can I trade STRBTC and/or WTCBTC futures ?
Many thanks again.

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  #7 (permalink)
Legendary Systematic Algo Trader
Somewhere, Delawhere, USA
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: TradeStation, MultiCharts
Broker: TS Securities, OANDA
Trading: Energies
 
vmodus's Avatar
 
Posts: 955 since Feb 2017
Thanks: 1,940 given, 1,888 received


ellinas View Post
Hello SMCJB,

thank you very much for your valuable reply.
As a retail trader, trading 2 contracts/trade via my NinjaTrader NT7 platform (CQG data provider for BTC futures), do you think that Philips may be another alternative ?
Currently, I am trading (with my NT7) BTC futures (2 contracts) on CME. I wonder if I can easily change to ICE with lower margin ($3,478 X 2) and, if yes, how?
Another thing I am looking at is if and where (Brokers - Clearing Firms) can I trade STRBTC and/or WTCBTC futures ?
Many thanks again.

You are talking crypto currency pairs here, so you should be looking at an alt-coin broker/exchange. I am not aware of any major broker that does those pairs, even Bitstamp, which is one of the largest crypto exchanges.

Most alt-coin brokers exchanges offer and support MT4, but I don't know any that support NT7/8. If you don't mind learning a new platform, that is the way to go, to trade the alt-coins. Personally I only trust Bitstamp, and then not completely. Two of the exchanges I have used in the past are now gone, so just beware. Coindesk.com is a good source for alt-coin news and information.

~vmodus

~vmodus

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  #8 (permalink)
Legendary Market Wizard
Houston, TX
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Trading Technologies
Broker: Primary Advantage Futures. Also ED&F and Tradestation
Trading: Primarily Energy but also a little ES, GE, GC, SI & Bitcoin
 
Posts: 3,781 since Dec 2013
Thanks: 3,059 given, 7,315 received


ellinas View Post
As a retail trader, trading 2 contracts/trade via my NinjaTrader NT7 platform (CQG data provider for BTC futures), do you think that Philips may be another alternative ?

The three brokers that I am sure clear ICE Bitcoin are ED&F, Philips and Wedbush. I know this because all three of them have taken positions to physical delivery.

ellinas View Post
Currently, I am trading (with my NT7) BTC futures (2 contracts) on CME. I wonder if I can easily change to ICE with lower margin ($3,478 X 2) and, if yes, how?

The margin rates as a percentage of notional are the same, the difference is in the size of contracts. CME is a 5 coin contract while ICE is a 1 coin contract. Hence in order to have equal positions you would need to trade 10 ICE contracts to be equivalent to your 2 CME contracts.

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  #9 (permalink)
Cyprus, Nico
 
 
Posts: 30 since Mar 2019
Thanks: 9 given, 8 received


SMCJB View Post
The three brokers that I am sure clear ICE Bitcoin are ED&F, Philips and Wedbush. I know this because all three of them have taken positions to physical delivery.

The margin rates as a percentage of notional are the same, the difference is in the size of contracts. CME is a 5 coin contract while ICE is a 1 coin contract. Hence in order to have equal positions you would need to trade 10 ICE contracts to be equivalent to your 2 CME contracts.

Hello SMCJB,

Many thanks for your reply and information.
Have a nice (& healthy) day.

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