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Rithmic

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  #101 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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MooneyNYG View Post
I have been using rithmic for long time. i used esignal charting traded my futures on r-trader direct. super fast and never crashed. now that they have added charting, i can chart and trade with rithmic

I am very happy that you have a good experience with Rithmic. Regardless of the platform you use, always have RTrader if you use the Rithmic feed. I think for risk management, sorting trades, and see whether you are long/short after an active day having a platform that will show you all the trades in an organized manner is a plus. as an FYI for the readers here: RTrader will show you all the trades you do on your platform of choice that streams Rithmic through it.

We are going to have soon (30 days or so) a website that will describe all the platforms people can use via rhythmic and try it out.

@MooneyNYG, thank you for all the encouragement on the other threads...we finally getting some recognition!
I will show my staff your comments in the AM. This will brighten up their day and make them feel good
They are the true magic behind it all.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
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  #102 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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mattz View Post
...... Regardless of the platform you use, always have RTrader if you use the Rithmic feed. I think for risk management, sorting trades, and see whether you are long/short after an active day having a platform that will show you all the trades in an organized manner is a plus. as an FYI for the readers here: RTrader will show you all the trades you do on your platform of choice that streams Rithmic through it........

@mattz

I use Ninja Trader with Zenfire. I have written some proprietary things for Ninja Trader so I am pretty much married to it. If I wanted to use Rithmic feed , I would still need Rtrader also?

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #103 (permalink)
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
@mattz

I use Ninja Trader with Zenfire. I have written some proprietary things for Ninja Trader so I am pretty much married to it. If I wanted to use Rithmic feed , I would still need Rtrader also?

You do not have to use Rtrader when using the Rithmic feed. You can run Rithmic on NinjaTrader independently

Because Rtrader is Rithmic's platform, it could show you all the positions you execute on NinjaTrader (in your case) and you could execute through it as well and will off set your positions in NinjaTrader, etc.
Here is why people would use Rtrader while running the Rithmnic feed through their platform of choice:

-See precisely their positions and see NET/NET what they hold (some like the display and order history tab)
-Trade orders that are OCO are held on the Rithmic server not your local machine
-Back up for their primary platform (ONLY for Rithmic feed)

I hope this helps and just like yourself we have many NinjaTrader "Married" guys.
We have been working with NinjaTrader for a number of years and support their customers.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
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  #104 (permalink)
Fern
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@MooneyNYG

MooneyNYG View Post
I agree. you trading stocks with rithmic too?

the stock options and i'm learning about daytrading futures

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  #105 (permalink)
bidask201
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I saw someone say the rithmic api documentation is publicly available but never saw the link. Anyone have the link ?

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  #106 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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bidask201 View Post
I saw someone say the rithmic api documentation is publicly available but never saw the link. Anyone have the link ?

I believe you have to request it from your Rithmic broker.

Mike

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  #107 (permalink)
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Big Mike View Post
I believe you have to request it from your Rithmic broker.

Mike

That is correct!
You need to provide full details: Name, Address, email and phone before the API documentation is released.
It is not available publicly.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #108 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
New York, NY
 
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To both brokers and users, how often are there disconnects and instances of lag/delay in data with the Rithmic feed? When were the last such instances, and how quickly were they resolved?

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  #109 (permalink)
 jthom 
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Generally never. In the past 5 months, I have had 2 outages. Both on Sundays. Reliable and Fast generally, especially in my location.

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  #110 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
New York, NY
 
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Broker: Amp-Rithmic/TT, IB
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jthom View Post
Generally never. In the past 5 months, I have had 2 outages. Both on Sundays. Reliable and Fast generally, especially in my location.

Thanks for responding, would like some more detail if you don't mind. What location is that? How long did the outages last? Were you contacted when these happened or offered any explanation or status?

When there is a disconnect, does the platform reconnect automatically once the feed is restored? Are existing orders/OCO's affected or do they automatically return to working state?

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  #111 (permalink)
 Jura 
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A Google and futures.io (formerly BMT) search turned up the following brokers that offer the Rithmic data feed. Are there any others not included in this list?
  • Optimus Futures
  • Zaner
  • Deep Discount Futures Trading
  • Olympus Futures

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  #112 (permalink)
 TrendTraderBH 
Detroit, Michigan
 
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Another broker using Rithmic for data - Progressive Trading Group (newer kid on the block)

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  #113 (permalink)
 lancelottrader 
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A Broker who provides a feed must be familiar with it’s backend, risk management features and have the ability to resolve emergencies ASAP.Believe me, I've had things go wrong with some other brokers in the past and it cost me money. So just because another broker, or for that matter another 100 brokers offer it does not mean you will get the right support for it. From what I've seen, Optimus has been an advocate of Rithmic for a long time and has really good familiarity with. In fact, I know from experience that they can identify my position as soon as I call them and help me out ASAP using the Rithmic infrastructure. I do like the fact that Optimus Futures chose to have a core feed that they support and not just 10 technology feeds that they vaguely know.

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  #114 (permalink)
 manualtrader 
California
 
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I have a Demo account Zen Fire, Feed is from Rithmic Paper Trading Server, it lagged so much, for CL, at 10:07, it lagged 50 seconds comparing with IB data. Is this because of the Demo feed quality or you had the same result in live account? Thanks for your sharing.

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  #115 (permalink)
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manualtrader View Post
I have a Demo account Zen Fire, Feed is from Rithmic Paper Trading Server, it lagged so much, for CL, at 10:07, it lagged 50 seconds comparing with IB data. Is this because of the Demo feed quality or you had the same result in live account? Thanks for your sharing.

This is exactly the type of information that gets around on a public domain, viewable by many and is wrong.
First, try a Rithmic DIRECTLY not via another feed.
Also, I have checked with Rithmic, my charts (demo) and I have not seen anything like that.

In instances like this please call us and we will assist because this could be something on your end that was not set up right.
I am not saying that Rithmic is perfect, and any server could be affected, but it does not lag and there are enough people on this thread that can attest to this.
In this business a second is one too many.

Matt

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #116 (permalink)
 lancelottrader 
Legendary Market Wizard
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Broker: Optimus Futures/ Rithmic
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mattz View Post
This is exactly the type of information that gets around on a public domain, viewable by many and is wrong.
First, try a Rithmic DIRECTLY not via another feed.
Also, I have checked with Rithmic, my charts (demo) and I have not seen anything like that.

In instances like this please call us and we will assist because this could be something on your end that was not set up right.
I am not saying that Rithmic, and any server could be affected, but it does not lag and there are enough people on this thread that can attest to this.
In this business a second is one too many.

Matt

I would also like to add that I was watching and trading CL yesterday during the time period mentioned, and I saw no lag whatsoever. The markets were moving fast and with a lot of volatility since Bernanke was giving an important speech . My feed is from Rithmic through Optimus, and I took a few trades while Bernanke was speaking and they executed immediately and with no slippage either. I also reviewed my charts to see if there was any sign of a data feed lag and I saw none .

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  #117 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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manualtrader View Post
I have a Demo account Zen Fire, Feed is from Rithmic Paper Trading Server, it lagged so much, for CL, at 10:07, it lagged 50 seconds comparing with IB data. Is this because of the Demo feed quality or you had the same result in live account? Thanks for your sharing.

There was no lag on rithmic feed at 10:07 on CL or any other time yesterday. May be an issue with your computer or internet connection is my guess.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #118 (permalink)
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liquidcci View Post
There was no lag on rithmic feed at 10:07 on CL or any other time yesterday. May be an issue with your computer or internet connection is my guess.

Right on the money.
I have seen many instances where platforms freeze and/or pause where the amount of data that came in could not be handled by the net provider. If you want unfiltered data and see every tick you must accommodate that.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #119 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
New York, NY
 
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mattz View Post
Right on the money.
I have seen many instances where platforms freeze and/or pause where the amount of data that came in could not be handled by the net provider. If you want unfiltered data and see every tick you must accommodate that.

Could you be more specific, what type, quality, and down/up speed connection is needed?

How does a typical home broadband cable company setup of 15mbit down/2mbit up/35ms ping to Chicago fare, with a fast unfiltered tick by tick feed?

Is there benefit in going faster, or how much bandwidth can the feed effectively make use of?

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  #120 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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Futures Operator View Post
Could you be more specific, what type, quality, and down/up speed connection is needed?

How does a typical home broadband cable company setup of 15mbit down/2mbit up/35ms ping to Chicago fare, with a fast unfiltered tick by tick feed?

Is there benefit in going faster, or how much bandwidth can the feed effectively make use of?

This is a really good question.
I would say that most cable companies would facilitate Rithmic, but I promise to get back with what would be minimum and ideal.
Let me check with Rithmic.
@liquidcci and @lancelottrader are active and highly knowledgeable traders that could share what they use.

Matt

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #121 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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Futures Operator View Post
Could you be more specific, what type, quality, and down/up speed connection is needed?

How does a typical home broadband cable company setup of 15mbit down/2mbit up/35ms ping to Chicago fare, with a fast unfiltered tick by tick feed?

Is there benefit in going faster, or how much bandwidth can the feed effectively make use of?

This is a really good question.
I would say that most cable companies would facilitate Rithmic, but I promise to get back with what would be minimum and ideal.
Let me check with Rithmic.
@liquidcci and @lancelottrader are active and highly knowledgeable traders that could share what they use.

Matt

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
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  #122 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
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Futures Operator View Post
Could you be more specific, what type, quality, and down/up speed connection is needed?

How does a typical home broadband cable company setup of 15mbit down/2mbit up/35ms ping to Chicago fare, with a fast unfiltered tick by tick feed?

Is there benefit in going faster, or how much bandwidth can the feed effectively make use of?

I use a remote server in a data center so get a much better connection. But your local cable internet should work fine from a spec standpoint but is more susceptible to potential issues. But those issues are not rithmic specific and can affect any feed if you are using a retail home type internet connection.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #123 (permalink)
 manualtrader 
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liquidcci View Post
I use a remote server in a data center so get a much better connection. But your local cable internet should work fine from a spec standpoint but is more susceptible to potential issues. But those issues are not rithmic specific and can affect any feed if you are using a retail home type internet connection.

Hi Liquidcci, about how much it costs for a remote server leasing? If just use minutes charts, no tick chart, no range chart, or other fancy charts, do you think it still has potential issues using local cable internet? Thank you.

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  #124 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
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manualtrader View Post
Hi Liquidcci, about how much it costs for a remote server leasing? If just use minutes charts, no tick chart, no range chart, or other fancy charts, do you think it still has potential issues using local cable internet? Thank you.

If interested in a remote server @sam028 can help you out see

As far as choosing between something more robust like a remote server and using your own PC with local internet connection it just depends what you are doing. Your issue may not even be with your cable connection just threw that out as a possibility. A remote server in a data center does offer lower latency if close to exchanges and redundant reliable connections. But many trade using local home internet connection and do well. Just depends on your situation and what is important to you as a trader.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #125 (permalink)
 manualtrader 
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liquidcci View Post
I use a remote server in a data center so get a much better connection. But your local cable internet should work fine from a spec standpoint but is more susceptible to potential issues. But those issues are not rithmic specific and can affect any feed if you are using a retail home type internet connection.


liquidcci View Post
If interested in a remote server @sam028 can help you out see

As far as choosing between something more robust like a remote server and using your own PC with local internet connection it just depends what you are doing. Your issue may not even be with your cable connection just threw that out as a possibility. A remote server in a data center does offer lower latency if close to exchanges and redundant reliable connections. But many trade using local home internet connection and do well. Just depends on your situation and what is important to you as a trader.

Thanks Liquidcci. I just suspect the quality of Demo Rithmic feed, and live Rithmic may work well, and I will do the test next week at the EIA report period. When this happened last week, I have IQ Feed and IB feed running at the same time, and there were no lags with them. I use a Dell workstation T3500 with 6 cores, 12 gb memory, TW cable down 18 mb, and have minutes charts and daily chart only. When I tested it, I use SC platform, and I can test it with NT and MC as well, and report back next week.

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  #126 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
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manualtrader View Post
Thanks Liquidcci. I just suspect the quality of Demo Rithmic feed, and live Rithmic may work well, and I will do the test next week at the EIA report period. When this happened last week, I have IQ Feed and IB feed running at the same time, and there were no lags with them. I use a Dell workstation T3500 with 6 cores, 12 gb memory, TW cable down 18 mb, and have minutes charts and daily chart only. When I tested it, I use SC platform, and I can test it with NT and MC as well, and report back next week.

@manualtrader I think your setup should work fine even using a retail internet connection. I would suggest not using IB feed if trading futures because it is filtered. Some don't care if filtered or unfiltered but I personally want all the data coming through my charts. I will say rithmic has performed extremely well for me --- very fast and very robust and my main instrument is CL which can really move.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #127 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
New York, NY
 
Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Sierra Chart, thinkorswim
Broker: Amp-Rithmic/TT, IB
Trading: CL, GC, NQ
 
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liquidcci View Post
If interested in a remote server @sam028 can help you out see

As far as choosing between something more robust like a remote server and using your own PC with local internet connection it just depends what you are doing. Your issue may not even be with your cable connection just threw that out as a possibility. A remote server in a data center does offer lower latency if close to exchanges and redundant reliable connections. But many trade using local home internet connection and do well. Just depends on your situation and what is important to you as a trader.

@liquidcci, correct me if I'm wrong, but to clarify, for @manualtrader or anyone else, a remote server could only be beneficial if you are trading an automated system/algo that is executing on its own, as any discretionary trading which you manually execute, would still first also go through the ping/latency/bandwidth of whatever connection you are sending orders from.

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  #128 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
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Futures Operator View Post
@liquidcci, correct me if I'm wrong, but to clarify, for @manualtrader or anyone else, a remote server could only be beneficial if you are trading an automated system/algo that is executing on its own, as any discretionary trading which you manually execute, would still first also go through the ping/latency/bandwidth of whatever connection you are sending orders from.

@Futures Operator that is how I have always viewed it but @sam028 is really the expert on it. I think he may have some data that says otherwise. I am basing that on something I think he said but don't quote me on it because I may have my wires crossed. If can get him in this conversation he can be very helpful.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #129 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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  #130 (permalink)
 sam028 
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Futures Operator View Post
@liquidcci, correct me if I'm wrong, but to clarify, for @manualtrader or anyone else, a remote server could only be beneficial if you are trading an automated system/algo that is executing on its own, as any discretionary trading which you manually execute, would still first also go through the ping/latency/bandwidth of whatever connection you are sending orders from.

Remote servers are mostly used by algo traders, for obvious reasons (speed and reliability). Auto-trading from home/office with a retail Internet connection shoud be avoid with real cash, it's only good with simulation account, or with an active human monitoring.
But a NT ATM can also be seen as an algo (the exit logic is hosted by NT, on your local machine), that's why some discretionary traders use a remote server. A good ATM, in a trendy market, can stay in position few days: if this job can be done by a remote server (reliable, no noise, ...), that's not a bad idea.
And, for limit orders, hosted by the trading software, the fills are usually better in this case (order sent and executed in few ms, vs around 100ms to 500ms with a retail Internet connection). I had an example few months ago, with a guy unhappy because of the slippage he had on a trade, 20 ticks with a 5 ticks stop, on CL, during the oil inventory news. After analyzing this trade, we found that the whole trade took less than 16ms (Windows can't measure anything below 16ms), and if he took the same trade with his own Internet connection/office workstation, he would has lost 80 ticks...
So it can also be used for discretionary traders, looking for better fills and more reliability.
A remote server is useless or can have a negative impact on the P&L for traders using market orders, sent by their right (or left) index, or when too much data is transferred from the remote server to user's screen (8 screens with NT cross-hair cursor for example ).

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  #131 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
New York, NY
 
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mattz View Post
This is a really good question.
I would say that most cable companies would facilitate Rithmic, but I promise to get back with what would be minimum and ideal.
Let me check with Rithmic.
@liquidcci and @lancelottrader are active and highly knowledgeable traders that could share what they use.

Matt

@mattz, looking forward to see your findings.

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  #132 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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@mattz, looking forward to see your findings.


The biggest item is jitter. That is when the latency varies. So if you are going from 30ms to 100ms back to 30ms that is poor.

Overall speed recommended is over 2 MB per second

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #133 (permalink)
 lancelottrader 
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mattz View Post
This is a really good question.
I would say that most cable companies would facilitate Rithmic, but I promise to get back with what would be minimum and ideal.
Let me check with Rithmic.
@liquidcci and @lancelottrader are active and highly knowledgeable traders that could share what they use.

Matt

Just saw this...I actually have only been using a high speed cable internet connection through Ninja Trader via Optimus . So I guess I'm not a great resource when it comes to using other types of connections. I will say this however, I do trade very fast moves in CL and they execute immediately and flawlessly . Anyone who has traded Crude Oil can tell you that it moves incredibly fast. Through lots of screen time, I can often catch those blazingly fast spikes it makes. I hit the button, and I am in...immediately. When I click to exit, same story..no hesitation. In fact, I often place stop orders..seconds ahead of a news release, and I can catch the news spike with virtually no slippage at all. I've traded several other platforms before, including MB Trading and a great DMA broker called Advanced Markets. They pale in comparison to the results I get from Rithmic through Optimus. I haven't ran any elaborate tests but the fact that all my trades have executed with perfect precision has been good enough proof for me.

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  #134 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
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mattz View Post
The biggest item is jitter. That is when the latency varies. So if you are going from 30ms to 100ms back to 30ms that is poor.

Overall speed recommended is over 2 MB per second

@mattz, 2MB is 16mb/s (how the ISP's usually qoute speed). Whats the recommended latency and jitter, since those are the more important items?

I got 19Mbps, 35ms ping, 4ms jitter.

FYI, you can quickly/easily test your connection speed and latency at speedtest.net and packet loss and jitter at pingtest.net, use the Chicago based server. Would probably be a good idea to close all other applications, and test during active trading times. @lancelottrader, would be interested to see your results of those tests.

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  #135 (permalink)
 josh 
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manualtrader View Post
When I tested it, I use SC platform, and I can test it with NT and MC as well, and report back next week.

I would like to mention that I had two VERY noticeable lags (as in, 5 seconds or so behind) using a demo Rithmic feed on SC, but I have not noticed any problems running Rithmic on NT. You are the third person I have heard who has had Rithmic issues with Sierra. I did not happen to have RTrader up while I noticed the huge lag in Sierra, but based on what I saw I am 99% sure this is not a Rithmic issue, and that is supported by the fact that I have so far not noticed the problem in NT or RTrader. I also had a demo Rithmic position reported strangely and incorrectly in SC, so I think Sierra may want to look at its Rithmic implementation.

Rithmic, as seen running RTrader and in NT for me so far (still in testing), is lightning fast.

EDIT: see a few posts below, also saw the issue in NT so it does not seem to be Sierra related

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  #136 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
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josh View Post
I would like to mention that I had two VERY noticeable lags (as in, 5 seconds or so behind) using a demo Rithmic feed on SC, but I have not noticed any problems running Rithmic on NT. You are the third person I have heard who has had Rithmic issues with Sierra. @SierraChart, wanted to make you aware of this. I did not happen to have RTrader up while I noticed the huge lag in Sierra, but based on what I saw I am 99% sure this is not a Rithmic issue, and that is supported by the fact that I have so far not noticed the problem in NT or RTrader. I also had a demo Rithmic position reported strangely and incorrectly in SC, so I think Sierra may want to look at its Rithmic implementation.

Rithmic, as seen running RTrader and in NT for me so far (still in testing), is lightning fast.

Thanks for sharing, but that's disappointing, I was leaning towards running Rithmic with SC, rather than NT.

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  #137 (permalink)
 josh 
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Thanks for sharing, but that's disappointing, I was leaning towards running Rithmic with SC, rather than NT.

All I can say is, you should run the demo yourself and give it a try. My experience may not be yours. Maybe there are other factors at play such as my internet connection (though it has given me problems, it has been good as of late), computer, etc. The problems occurred for me at the open, when volume surged, and also as the ES was making new highs and it was pushing heavy volume (actually it was on the day it made 1424s). Check it out for yourself, and your experience may be very different.

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  #138 (permalink)
 josh 
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Unfortunately, I just saw the big lag again, this time on NT. When Merkel's comments came out at 10:13am ET, I had NT running on a laptop side-by-side with my desktop. This version of NT had no indicators running, only a chart, DOM, and the tape, very minimal. As I noticed it was news, I glanced over, and to my horror I saw the two feeds terribly out of sync. I thought for a second that maybe the Rithmic feed was just super fast. But then I noticed that 03.50 had printed on my desktop, and had not printed on the laptop. This continued for about 10-15 seconds, with a lag at 03.50 again, and again at 03.25, with the TT feed printing seconds ahead of the Rithmic feed. Now, this is a paper trading server Rithmic feed, not a production one. And while the desktop is a bit faster, it is also running a 350MB NT footprint with lots of data loaded, and this was clearly not a machine/software speed issue. It's exactly what I saw on Sierra two weeks ago and last week. My internet speed test shows pings to Chicago and NY under 60ms, with a jitter of max 10ms, and 40Mbps down / 4Mbps up. Both machines are plugged into the same router. Perhaps it's the case that both Sierra and NT are simply too slow to handle the data coming from Rithmic, but I find it hard to believe, and even if that's the case, it's a moot point, as I need at least one of those programs to be able to show me what's going on as it happens. I have seen when NT has issues buffering data quickly, but it never actually lags as it did and as Sierra did with Rithmic. Just reporting what I saw, and sad to report it, because I really wanted Rithmic to work for me, but while it's marginally faster than TT on a tick-per-tick basis, even running side-by-side I see no clear winner all the time in terms of speed, they are both good. If Rithmic wins the speed contest, it's by a very, very thin margin.

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  #139 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
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josh View Post
Unfortunately, I just saw the big lag again, this time on NT. When Merkel's comments came out at 10:13am ET, I had NT running on a laptop side-by-side with my desktop. This version of NT had no indicators running, only a chart, DOM, and the tape, very minimal. As I noticed it was news, I glanced over, and to my horror I saw the two feeds terribly out of sync. I thought for a second that maybe the Rithmic feed was just super fast. But then I noticed that 03.50 had printed on my desktop, and had not printed on the laptop. This continued for about 10-15 seconds, with a lag at 03.50 again, and again at 03.25, with the TT feed printing seconds ahead of the Rithmic feed. Now, this is a paper trading server Rithmic feed, not a production one. And while the desktop is a bit faster, it is also running a 350MB NT footprint with lots of data loaded, and this was clearly not a machine/software speed issue. It's exactly what I saw on Sierra two weeks ago and last week. My internet speed test shows pings to Chicago and NY under 60ms, with a jitter of max 10ms, and 40Mbps down / 4Mbps up. Both machines are plugged into the same router. Perhaps it's the case that both Sierra and NT are simply too slow to handle the data coming from Rithmic, but I find it hard to believe, and even if that's the case, it's a moot point, as I need at least one of those programs to be able to show me what's going on as it happens. I have seen when NT has issues buffering data quickly, but it never actually lags as it did and as Sierra did with Rithmic. Just reporting what I saw, and sad to report it, because I really wanted Rithmic to work for me, but while it's marginally faster than TT on a tick-per-tick basis, even running side-by-side I see no clear winner all the time in terms of speed, they are both good. If Rithmic wins the speed contest, it's by a very, very thin margin.


I don't know if there is a between Rithmic paper trading feed and live trading feed. But I see no lag at as you mentioned on my live trading feed using NT.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #140 (permalink)
 josh 
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liquidcci View Post
I don't know if there is a between Rithmic paper trading feed and live trading feed. But I see no lag at as you mentioned on my live trading feed using NT.

I suspect you are right, but how would you know if there is a lag--did you have it side-by-side with another data feed for reference? Looking at just it, there is no clue that it's lagging. It's when you see it printing several seconds behind another that it's confirmed.

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  #141 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
Austin, TX
 
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josh View Post
I suspect you are right, but how would you know if there is a lag--did you have it side-by-side with another data feed for reference? Looking at just it, there is no clue that it's lagging. It's when you see it printing several seconds behind another that it's confirmed.

@josh I see your point. I do have access to some other feeds not TT and would have to compare more closely although not sure when I will have time to watch that closely since my trades are executed via AT. I have used feeds where you could see large lag even without another feed side by side. I don't see any lag on rithmic but am viewing it in this manner. I think for you to get accurate picture though you might have to compare on live executing feed and not just paper trade feed. Although there may be no difference I suspect there could be.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #142 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
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liquidcci View Post
@josh I see your point. I do have access to some other feeds not TT and would have to compare more closely although not sure when I will have time to watch that closely since my trades are executed via AT. I have used feeds where you could see large lag even without another feed side by side. I don't see any lag on rithmic but am viewing it in this manner. I think for you to get accurate picture though you might have to compare on live executing feed and not just paper trade feed. Although there may be no difference I suspect there could be.

I don't understand why data providers would supply a less accurate demo feed, what's the point then? It would be useless to demo.

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  #143 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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Futures Operator View Post
I don't understand why data providers would supply a less accurate demo feed, what's the point then? It would be useless to demo.

They don't always but there are times demo feeds are hosted on different servers so you can get lag. I am not sure what rithmic does.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #144 (permalink)
 manualtrader 
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josh View Post
Unfortunately, I just saw the big lag again, this time on NT. When Merkel's comments came out at 10:13am ET, I had NT running on a laptop side-by-side with my desktop. This version of NT had no indicators running, only a chart, DOM, and the tape, very minimal. As I noticed it was news, I glanced over, and to my horror I saw the two feeds terribly out of sync. I thought for a second that maybe the Rithmic feed was just super fast. But then I noticed that 03.50 had printed on my desktop, and had not printed on the laptop. This continued for about 10-15 seconds, with a lag at 03.50 again, and again at 03.25, with the TT feed printing seconds ahead of the Rithmic feed. Now, this is a paper trading server Rithmic feed, not a production one. And while the desktop is a bit faster, it is also running a 350MB NT footprint with lots of data loaded, and this was clearly not a machine/software speed issue. It's exactly what I saw on Sierra two weeks ago and last week. My internet speed test shows pings to Chicago and NY under 60ms, with a jitter of max 10ms, and 40Mbps down / 4Mbps up. Both machines are plugged into the same router. Perhaps it's the case that both Sierra and NT are simply too slow to handle the data coming from Rithmic, but I find it hard to believe, and even if that's the case, it's a moot point, as I need at least one of those programs to be able to show me what's going on as it happens. I have seen when NT has issues buffering data quickly, but it never actually lags as it did and as Sierra did with Rithmic. Just reporting what I saw, and sad to report it, because I really wanted Rithmic to work for me, but while it's marginally faster than TT on a tick-per-tick basis, even running side-by-side I see no clear winner all the time in terms of speed, they are both good. If Rithmic wins the speed contest, it's by a very, very thin margin.

Hi josh,

Your test result is same as mine, and SC went through all my record yesterday, and it shows Rithmic feed lags, not my setup or SC problems. BUT, I got the Demo though Mirus, which uses Rithmic and Server - Paper Trading in SC. Today I setup the Demo through Optimus, using Rithmic and Server - Production, I tested this morning, works excellent, no lags, CL dropped 75 ticks in one minutes, I did not see any lags.

Anyway, my test shows that if you get Demo though Mirus, you will get Rithmic feed lag; if get from Optimus, Rithmic works great.

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  #145 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
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manualtrader View Post
Hi josh,

Your test result is same as mine, and SC went through all my record yesterday, and it shows Rithmic feed lags, not my setup or SC problems. BUT, I got the Demo though Mirus, which uses Rithmic and Server - Paper Trading in SC. Today I setup the Demo through Optimus, using Rithmic and Server - Production, I tested this morning, works excellent, no lags, CL dropped 75 ticks in one minutes, I did not see any lags.

Anyway, my test shows that if you get Demo though Mirus, you will get Rithmic feed lag; if get from Optimus, Rithmic works great.

@josh, who was your Rithmic feed through?

Why would Rithmic supply different performing feeds on different servers?

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 liquidcci 
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Futures Operator View Post
@josh, who was your Rithmic feed through?

Why would Rithmic supply different performing feeds on different servers?

@Futures Operator I don't think is out of the ordinary for data provider paper feeds to be of less quality than live executing feeds.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 Futures Operator 
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liquidcci View Post
@Futures Operator I don't think is out of the ordinary for data provider paper feeds to be of less quality than live executing feeds.

Yes, but really what's the point in testing/demoing/comparing the different feeds then, if they don't give accurate representations of their live performance?

I've e-mailed @rithmic and linked them to this topic, and I actually see they have signed in and are viewing this thread, hopefully they can clear up any confusion here. I would love more clarity on the bandwidth/latency/jitter requirements, as well as best broker/feed source to avoid the lag issues that have been described here.

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  #148 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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Over the years Rithmic had several demo systems. Currently they have 2, uat and paper trading.

Uat is connected to the test systems of the exchanges. Rithmic customers and prospects typically connect to uat to test basic functionality of programs they write that incorporate R | API. They test placing orders, getting market data, cancelling orders, etc. The test systems of the exchanges are run like actual exchanges so the market data in the exchanges’ test systems is the market data that the exchanges’ systems generate in response to new orders, modifications of orders and cancellations of orders. That market data is not market data form the live market. As there may not be many users connected to the exchanges’ test systems at any one time, and different users may be testing using different prices, the exchanges’ test system are not suitable for evaluating trading strategies or volume testing.

So Rithmic built it's own exchange simulator and hooked it up to real live market data. Rithmic customers and prospects may be granted access to this system, subject to exchange market data distribution rules, and test Rithmic’s front end screens, R | Trader and R | Trader Pro, third party screens like MultiCharts or SierraChart or their own proprietary trading software built with R | API. The paper trading system is a pretty good system for testing certain types of trading strategies and for testing basic functionality of a trading program and for testing trading programs with respect to market data throughput. The market data is the market data from the live market, but it is Rithmic that generates the fills. In our opinion its very accurate but it is not a substitute for the real thing. Many users find it to be a very useful tool.

Rithmic production systems run on machines different from the machines used by Rithmic’s uat and paper trading environments so that prod is not affected by users testing. The paper trading environment is not in Aurora (so the CME data it gets which originates in Aurora takes a few milliseconds to get to it (compared to Rithmic’s prod systems running in Aurora). The cost profile for Aurora and the cost profile of the paper trading environment are quite different, substantially lower for paper trading. Consequently, “you get what you pay for” translates into a paper trading system that is a good image of the live market but a bit slower.

If you would like to demo the live feed, please contact us at Optimus.

With respect to detecting and correcting slowness, Rithmic monitors the latency of their market data constantly. If Rithmic detects high latency, or if a user reports high latency, Rithmic investigates it and takes corrective action based upon their findings. As I am sure you can imagine, there can be many causes for latency, especially in an environment that has sustained peaks of market data rates in excess of 100,000 messages per second every day and which supports several thousand users concurrently. Sometimes bottlenecks affecting the smooth flow of market data occur because of changes in users’ behavior as happened a week or so ago when some users began requesting market data for all options (they stopped until they can request their data differently). Other times new or additional hardware is required as is the case presently (I understand that new hardware arrived today and will be deployed this weekend).

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
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  #149 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
New York, NY
 
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@mattz, thanks for posting Rithmic's response to my second email. For anyone else interested, below is their first response, to when I asked them to comment on the lag issue users have mentioned here. After which I asked them about the point of the demo feed if it's not accurate, and why these lag issues hadn't been corrected up till now, then they explained the above which matt posted.

Also, I'd note that Rithmic said either Optimus or Mirus could demo a live production feed.

"The posts seem to state that the market data lags are seen in our demo system. Our demo system (our paper trading system) runs completely separately from our prod system and on hardware that is not as powerful. It should not be used as a measure for speed, latency, etc.

In prod on Friday at the close and today, Monday around 10:13am ny time, we and some customers noticed some slowness when the market data rates spiked for a few seconds. we are taking action to make sure that when such spikes reoccur, and they will, that there will be virtually no slowness."

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  #150 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
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manualtrader View Post
Hi josh,

Your test result is same as mine, and SC went through all my record yesterday, and it shows Rithmic feed lags, not my setup or SC problems. BUT, I got the Demo though Mirus, which uses Rithmic and Server - Paper Trading in SC. Today I setup the Demo through Optimus, using Rithmic and Server - Production, I tested this morning, works excellent, no lags, CL dropped 75 ticks in one minutes, I did not see any lags.

Anyway, my test shows that if you get Demo though Mirus, you will get Rithmic feed lag; if get from Optimus, Rithmic works great.

I don't think simply observing a lag on one feed on one day, and not observing a lag on another feed on another morning is a test that is scientific at all or gives any useful information. Even the laggy feed may not always lag, or if/when it does, you may not notice it or miss it.

As I qouted in my post from Rithmic above, they admitted even their production feed (what you got from Optimus as a demo) experienced some lags recently on over a few days, for short periods of time. They have already taken steps to address this issue.

Also, I asked Rithmic to clarify regarding the difference in their feed through different brokers, here is their response:

"The uat and paper trading environments provided by brokers who offer Rithmic is the same. For Prod, Optimus uses a system that we make available to our clients and is shared amongst them. Mirus has its own deployment of our software (Zen-Fire) on its own machines, in its own data center using its own exchange connections."

What I get from this is that, if you have UAT or Demo from Rithmic through any broker, it will be the same, and if you have Prod from Rithmic through any broker, it will be the same. However, ZF through Mirus is not the original pure Rithmic feed, as it goes through their own infastructure.

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 Futures Operator 
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manualtrader View Post
Thanks Liquidcci. I just suspect the quality of Demo Rithmic feed, and live Rithmic may work well, and I will do the test next week at the EIA report period. When this happened last week, I have IQ Feed and IB feed running at the same time, and there were no lags with them. I use a Dell workstation T3500 with 6 cores, 12 gb memory, TW cable down 18 mb, and have minutes charts and daily chart only. When I tested it, I use SC platform, and I can test it with NT and MC as well, and report back next week.

@manualtrader, did you perform this test? Interested to see your results.

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 manualtrader 
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Futures Operator View Post
@manualtrader, did you perform this test? Interested to see your results.

I did, there is no lags with Demo Rithmic from Optimus, but only 2 days. After that I started using live data, and I am happy with the live Rithmic except this morning.

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  #153 (permalink)
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I did, there is no lags with Demo Rithmic from Optimus, but only 2 days. After that I started using live data, and I am happy with the live Rithmic except this morning.

today was an anomaly, and sadly it wasn't Rithmic that went down or its equipment rather one data center.
When things like things happen they do take notes so this kind of things will not happen.
We appreciate your business and trust.

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 JackR 
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mattz View Post
today was an anomaly, and sadly it wasn't Rithmic that went down or its equipment rather one data center.

When this happens does Rithmic correct their backfill to add the data that was not transmitted? If so, do they add it a the tick level?

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 manualtrader 
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mattz View Post
today was an anomaly, and sadly it wasn't Rithmic that went down or its equipment rather one data center.
When things like things happen they do take notes so this kind of things will not happen.
We appreciate your business and trust.

Traders should be confident to open account with Optimus after this event, Mattz has been taking care of us since early this morning. There are other brokers offer Rithmic too, but looks like only Mattz really cares. Thanks Mattz.

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When this happens does Rithmic correct their backfill to add the data that was not transmitted? If so, do they add it a the tick level?

I was working with a customer today where Sierra helped him with the "holes" created.
We will ask about the other platforms, but I am confident in saying yes.

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mattz View Post
today was an anomaly, and sadly it wasn't Rithmic that went down or its equipment rather one data center.
When things like things happen they do take notes so this kind of things will not happen.
We appreciate your business and trust.

Some more info from Rithmic on today's outage:

"Our system runs across multiple data centers. Each data center is connected to a central data center in Chicago. the link between our data center in aurora and he central data center in Chicago went down. At no time were we disconnected from the exchanges. This happened around 8:20am and the telco that provide us the link between aurora and Chicago was on the problem right away.

While the telco was working to fix the problem we began to put in place programs to route the traffic over the internet between the 2 affected data centers. We thought this would take us about 10 – 30 minutes but to our surprise and disappointment it took us a couple of hours. Around the time we established connectivity between the 2 data centers over the internet, the telco identified the problem and fixed it (twice) – they had a defective network card in one of their routers in aurora.

If such a link between data centers fails in the future, we are now in a much better position to route traffic between them over the internet. Sorry for the delay."

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  #158 (permalink)
 Futures Operator 
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@mattz, thanks for getting me set up on the Rithmic demo feed, on all four platforms today lol, despite all you had to deal with on the outage.

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  #159 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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Anyone else having problems with Rithmic historical data this morning? I have attached the garble I am seeing all over my charts. This was not there on Friday. I am running 15 range charts on CL.

If you are having the problem just start to scroll back you can't miss it as it is all over the place not just on one particular day. I did a backtest that should have executed about 5 trades but it executed 120 because of all the bad data

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 pinto552 
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Hi...i am running rithmic\optimus with no issue today. also created a 15 range chart on cl with out issue.

hope this helps.

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  #161 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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Hi...i am running rithmic\optimus with no issue today. also created a 15 range chart on cl with out issue.

hope this helps.

@pinto552 thanks however it is not on today's data but historical. They have acknowledged there is an issue but I cannot try to implement solution until after today's close. So I will update after close.

It has to do with data that came in on Saturday I believe. Look at your charts on Saturday 9/22. After close I am going to delete that out of NT. I usually have no data on Saturdays but somehow that is affecting my backtest results even when I do not include Saturdays. I think their solution may fix but will not know until after hours.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #162 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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liquidcci View Post
Anyone else having problems with Rithmic historical data this morning? I have attached the garble I am seeing all over my charts. This was not there on Friday. I am running 15 range charts on CL.

If you are having the problem just start to scroll back you can't miss it as it is all over the place not just on one particular day. I did a backtest that should have executed about 5 trades but it executed 120 because of all the bad data

It might be the same issue as here:



Mike

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  #163 (permalink)
 Koepisch 
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Hi,

can anybody clearify (perhaps @mattz), where the rithmic Gateway Server is located in europe und if / how i can connect to them (as an european customer) with Ninjatrader and R|Trader? Furthermore i want to know (something for @AMP Trading) how the order is routed if i trade FDAX at the eurex via the european rithmic gateway. Due to latency reasons i want to determine the best (vs. costs of course) co-location.

Thanks
Koepisch

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  #164 (permalink)
 Jonson 
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Koepisch View Post
Hi,

can anybody clearify (perhaps @mattz), where the rithmic Gateway Server is located in europe und if / how i can connect to them (as an european customer) with Ninjatrader and R|Trader? Furthermore i want to know (something for @AMP Trading) how the order is routed if i trade FDAX at the eurex via the european rithmic gateway. Due to latency reasons i want to determine the best (vs. costs of course) co-location.

Thanks
Koepisch

ask at mirus a separate account for rithmic
download rithmic trader and choose gateway for europe and see results

* If investing gets too difficult for a seventh grader to understand, the system is needlessly complex
* Markets produce an enormous volume of information, much of which is redundant
* In every game and con there's always an opponent, and there's always a victim. The trick is to know when you're the latter, so you can become the former
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  #165 (permalink)
 Koepisch 
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Jonson View Post
ask at mirus a separate account for rithmic
download rithmic trader and choose gateway for europe and see results

@Jonson: I don't open subaccounts and install new software to answer an simple question. Did you know how the orders are routed to eurex via european rithmic gateway? I've asked rithmic via mail but with no response yet.

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  #166 (permalink)
 Jonson 
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Koepisch View Post
@Jonson: I don't open subaccounts and install new software to answer an simple question. Did you know how the orders are routed to eurex via european rithmic gateway? I've asked rithmic via mail but with no response yet.

HI
i trade us indexes through european gateway, all ok, dont see a problems and faster
but i use nt only for charts and rithmic trader for orders

* If investing gets too difficult for a seventh grader to understand, the system is needlessly complex
* Markets produce an enormous volume of information, much of which is redundant
* In every game and con there's always an opponent, and there's always a victim. The trick is to know when you're the latter, so you can become the former
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  #167 (permalink)
 Koepisch 
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HI
i trade us indexes through european gateway, all ok, dont see a problems and faster
but i use nt only for charts and rithmic trader for orders

@Jonson: Thats a good idea to seperate charting and execution. Please can you give me the IP address of the european rithmic gateway (can use netstat if R|Trader don't show the real IP)?

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  #168 (permalink)
 sands 
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Does Rithmic cover ICE Europe? If anyone knows off the top of their head.

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  #169 (permalink)
 Jonson 
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sands View Post
Does Rithmic cover ICE Europe? If anyone knows off the top of their head.

no

* If investing gets too difficult for a seventh grader to understand, the system is needlessly complex
* Markets produce an enormous volume of information, much of which is redundant
* In every game and con there's always an opponent, and there's always a victim. The trick is to know when you're the latter, so you can become the former
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  #170 (permalink)
 Koepisch 
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Hi,

can anybody clearify (perhaps @mattz), where the rithmic Gateway Server is located in europe und if / how i can connect to them (as an european customer) with Ninjatrader and R|Trader? Furthermore i want to know (something for @AMP Trading) how the order is routed if i trade FDAX at the eurex via the european rithmic gateway. Due to latency reasons i want to determine the best (vs. costs of course) co-location.

Thanks
Koepisch

Rithmic answered, so i can add some meat here. The european rithmic server is located in ireland and no colocation can be offered. The risk management is still done in the us, so there is no big latency gain. But it's better to connect as close as possible to keep the public route as short as possible. Crossland, Amp and Dorman are common clearer which supporting eurex via rithmic.

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 jerbersoft 
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has anyone experience NT lagging from R|Trader? just experienced it today. now im not confident trading today.

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has anyone experience NT lagging from R|Trader? just experienced it today. now im not confident trading today.

.

You mean NT lagging over Rithmic? R|Trader is a separate. We had no lagging reports.
This may be due to your location and we can help you reroute it via a server close to your location.
Please email us.
Matt

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 jerbersoft 
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hey mattz, thanks for the response. i have actually found out that the lagging effect between NT + Rithmic and R|Trader was because my internet was not stable and the platforms had some disconnections.

however, i am interested on the rerouting to the closest server. i think that would help a lot since im currently in the market for looking for fiber optic broadband. internet really sucks here in the PH.

if i get to have data rerouted to/from the nearest server possible, is it guaranteed that data from that server is not far behind from the data directly from Chicago? how many milliseconds is the latency from that server to Chicago? thanks!

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jerbersoft View Post
hey mattz, thanks for the response. i have actually found out that the lagging effect between NT + Rithmic and R|Trader was because my internet was not stable and the platforms had some disconnections.

however, i am interested on the rerouting to the closest server. i think that would help a lot since im currently in the market for looking for fiber optic broadband. internet really sucks here in the PH.

if i get to have data rerouted to/from the nearest server possible, is it guaranteed that data from that server is not far behind from the data directly from Chicago? how many milliseconds is the latency from that server to Chicago? thanks!

I will reach out to you later today via email to help you on this matter.
Matt

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  #175 (permalink)
 Scalpguy 
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I am evaluating different platforms for lower latency (not HFT) API based trading and currently testing Rithmic.

I have understood that the paper account server is not intended to latency/delay testings. It does not represent the real live server latencies which are lower.

Anyway before setting up a real account I did some R|API tests where I sent a limit buy/sell orders for ES contract at CME. I calculated the execution time from calling REngine::sendOrder() to the point where g_bDone flag was set in LineUpdate() callback.

Execution results are quite constantly around 15 ms.

I have a 3 core VPS Windows 2008 server set up in Cermak (thanks to speedytradingservers.com) where the PING gives a value 1ms for Rithmic paper trading server.

Has anybody else done these kind of tests and what kind of results you have received with your paper and LIVE accounts ?

btw. I am not after how fast the Rithmic will execute (I know it is fast) but would like to know the latencies of my whole setup (VPS, communication, application, broker's risk ctrl etc.) how well I am possible succeed in this...

btw2. Linux guys are welcome too. I have not decided the final OS for my setup yet.

btw3. Currently I have 2 canditates: Rithmic and CTS T4. It will be one of them.

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 sam028 
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Scalpguy View Post
I am evaluating different platforms for lower latency (not HFT) API based trading and currently testing Rithmic.

I have understood that the paper account server is not intended to latency/delay testings. It does not represent the real live server latencies which are lower.

Anyway before setting up a real account I did some R|API tests where I sent a limit buy/sell orders for ES contract at CME. I calculated the execution time from calling REngine::sendOrder() to the point where g_bDone flag was set in LineUpdate() callback.

Execution results are quite constantly around 15 ms.

I have a 3 core VPS Windows 2008 server set up in Cermak (thanks to speedytradingservers.com) where the PING gives a value 1ms for Rithmic paper trading server.

Has anybody else done these kind of tests and what kind of results you have received with your paper and LIVE accounts ?

btw. I am not after how fast the Rithmic will execute (I know it is fast) but would like to know the latencies of my whole setup (VPS, communication, application, broker's risk ctrl etc.) how well I am possible succeed in this...

btw2. Linux guys are welcome too. I have not decided the final OS for my setup yet.

btw3. Currently I have 2 canditates: Rithmic and CTS T4. It will be one of them.

One of my former Speedy user did the same kind of test with the R|API but from a Linux VPS, the results were better, between 4ms and 8ms (same VPS location as yours, live account and real trades).
Just FYI on virtual machines the "hardware" clock are not very reliable, but on very short trips like that it should not be too wrong.

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 Scalpguy 
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sam028 View Post
One of my former Speedy user did the same kind of test with the R|API but from a Linux VPS, the results were better, between 4ms and 8ms (same VPS location as yours, live account and real trades).
Just FYI on virtual machines the "hardware" clock are not very reliable, but on very short trips like that it should not be too wrong.

Hello Sam and thank you very much for your reply.

I implemented the timing by the QueryPerformanceCounter() and it should work quite well in virual environments but I think you are absolutely right the windows may not be very accurate in timings...

My tests were paper trading account but soon I will test with a live account and real trades. Lets see how it goes then. If it is still double to your Linux values (which I little a bit doubt) then I may switch to Linux. Maybe I will consider dedicated server but it seems your VPS solutions are quite efficient so if I am running just a small strategy box (no chartting etc) then it may be just fine with VPS.

What comes to the communication delays Rithmic support (their server provider sub theomne.net) said their paper trading engine is located in NYC but AMP support said it is in Cermak... So I will rely only real life tests done by myself

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 sam028 
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Scalpguy View Post
Hello Sam and thank you very much for your reply.

I implemented the timing by the QueryPerformanceCounter() and it should work quite well in virual environments but I think you are absolutely right the windows may not be very accurate in timings...

My tests were paper trading account but soon I will test with a live account and real trades. Lets see how it goes then. If it is still double to your Linux values (which I little a bit doubt) then I may switch to Linux. Maybe I will consider dedicated server but it seems your VPS solutions are quite efficient so if I am running just a small strategy box (no chartting etc) then it may be just fine with VPS.

What comes to the communication delays Rithmic support (their server provider sub theomne.net) said their paper trading engine is located in NYC but AMP support said it is in Cermak... So I will rely only real life tests done by myself

It can't be in NYC, you can't cheat with the speed of light .
I also presume Windows or Linux with the R|API should not change the orders latency that much.
It's easy an not risky to test with a real account and a real trade: sent a buy limit order 10 or 20 ticks above the ask, then cancel it when it's in the book and measure how long the process takes.

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 Scalpguy 
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sam028 View Post
It can't be in NYC, you can't cheat with the speed of light .
I also presume Windows or Linux with the R|API should not change the orders latency that much.
It's easy an not risky to test with a real account and a real trade: sent a buy limit order 10 or 20 ticks above the ask, then cancel it when it's in the book and measure how long the process takes.

Yes indeed

I will execute them through so can see the fills but maybe I first start by your way

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  #180 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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For certain platforms there are additional gateways available through the Rithmic infrastructure that can help reduce latency or disconnections. For example, when using SierraChart, you will notice in the ‘server’ field in the Data/Trade Service settings there are additional options, and one will let you choose the ‘Europe’ gateway. This should also be possible programmatically when using R | API as well.

When connecting to the regular Chicago gateway from overseas, or from a remote location, your network may have to travel through many different intermediary networks in order to access the Chicago gateway. Some of these intermediaries experiencing issues can affect latency, disconnections, and other networking quirks that can lead to frustration.

Choosing a closer gateway means that the network intermediaries are likely reduced and can result in a more stable experience in regards to connection state. This also allows for swift and reliable transfer from Rithmic gateway to the Rithmic infrastructure in Chicago.

While I do not have specific latency figures at this time, it is always worth a shot to try a closer gateway to see if it will reduce some of the general network issues in regards to your connection.

Matt

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  #181 (permalink)
 Scalpguy 
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The best solution would be that all (exchange, execution platform, your server and maybe broker too [risk control?!]) are located in the same data center. What I know for the case of mine (CME/Globex futures) it should be Aurora in Chicago.

If I have understood right the Rithmic and theomne.com servers are working in the same local network and located in Aurora. Building your app on Rithmic's R|Diamond technology you should able to achieve those below 1ms executions all the way down to 250us.

I am fine when I reach something about 5 ms. Currently I am sitting with my paper account at 15 ms. It seems my goal is realistic without the costs rising too high.

So my plan is to keep the blackbox colocated and then follow overall running from my charts here in Finland.

btw.Rithmic paper gives currently about 300ms here from Finland.

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  #182 (permalink)
Alphachase
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Quoting 
For certain platforms there are additional gateways available through the Rithmic infrastructure that can help reduce latency or disconnections. For example, when using SierraChart, you will notice in the ‘server’ field in the Data/Trade Service settings there are additional options, and one will let you choose the ‘Europe’ gateway. This should also be possible programmatically when using R | API as well.

Choosing a closer gateway means that the network intermediaries are likely reduced and can result in a more stable experience in regards to connection state. This also allows for swift and reliable transfer from Rithmic gateway to the Rithmic infrastructure in Chicago.

That definitely will be true until one day you find your European ISP (or a trunk provider) routing a signal to European host via Chicago. And it isn't an exceptional case at all BTW.

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  #183 (permalink)
 sam028 
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Alphachase View Post
That definitely will be true until one day you find your European ISP (or a trunk provider) routing a signal to European host via Chicago. And it isn't an exceptional case at all BTW.

That won't change the speed of light. Finland to Chicago at the speed of light, straight line and avoiding Earth curve , is around 2.5 ms. That's the theory, 2.5 ms with a flat earth and the signal travelling in vacuum. If you add that fiber optic eats 35% of the light speed, we're now at 4 ms. Then you add a bunch of electronic component and you're around 140 ms.
HFT talks in μs, with much much higher costs, being in around 10 ms with retail traders costs is already amazing.

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  #184 (permalink)
 Scalpguy 
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sam028 View Post
...HFT talks in μs, with much much higher costs, being in around 10 ms with retail traders costs is already amazing.

I agree 100%

btw. http://survey-smiles.com

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  #185 (permalink)
 Scalpguy 
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Scalpguy View Post
The best solution would be that all (exchange, execution platform, your server and maybe broker too [risk control?!]) are located in the same data center. What I know for the case of mine (CME/Globex futures) it should be Aurora in Chicago.

If I have understood right the Rithmic and theomne.com servers are working in the same local network and located in Aurora. Building your app on Rithmic's R|Diamond technology you should able to achieve those below 1ms executions all the way down to 250us.

I am fine when I reach something about 5 ms. Currently I am sitting with my paper account at 15 ms. It seems my goal is realistic without the costs rising too high.

So my plan is to keep the blackbox colocated and then follow overall running from my charts here in Finland.

btw.Rithmic paper gives currently about 300ms here from Finland.

Closing closing ...

From Cermak & paper account my R|API app sits now at 8,8ms (tick-to-filled trade). Sotware overhead is only 40 us on Window$


btw. SierraChart gives something about 25-100 ms. It is not very stable and of course very much up to what you have on your charts...

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  #186 (permalink)
 Keen4Snow 
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mattz View Post
For certain platforms there are additional gateways available through the Rithmic infrastructure that can help reduce latency or disconnections. ....

Choosing a closer gateway means that the network intermediaries are likely reduced and can result in a more stable experience in regards to connection state. This also allows for swift and reliable transfer from Rithmic gateway to the Rithmic infrastructure in Chicago.

While I do not have specific latency figures at this time, it is always worth a shot to try a closer gateway to see if it will reduce some of the general network issues in regards to your connection.

I am located in central Europe.
Roundtrip times to Rithmic servers (directly to Chicago) are 146 ms in average (measured in R|Trader).
When connected through european gateway the average ping is 55 ms only.

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  #187 (permalink)
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Keen4Snow View Post
I am located in central Europe.
Roundtrip times to Rithmic servers (directly to Chicago) are 146 ms in average (measured in R|Trader).
When connected through european gateway the average ping is 55 ms only.

That is Great! Happy to hear that you were able to improve your latency by so much.
Sierra, MultiChart and R-Trader do have the ability to choose your routing.

Thanks,
Matt

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #188 (permalink)
 Jonson 
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i'm from RU and my connect through european gateway the average ping is 55 ms too ;-)

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  #189 (permalink)
 Scalpguy 
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Jonson View Post
i'm from RU and my connect through european gateway the average ping is 55 ms too ;-)

Here in Helsinki it is quite the same 55 ms but here where I live (in Finland) it is something like 70 ms.

If I remember right the Rithmic gateway here in Europe is located in Ireland...

BUT when we are talking about the tick-to-confirmed trade executions times (which is what counts in algos) you can multiply these times something like 3-6x depending on the current net traffic.

So in the case of algos it is worth to invest something like 50 euros (or less) / mo and you will get something like 5-7 ms tick-to-trade consistently. 250e more and then you will get under 1 ms.

As Sam said this is guite low compared to costs.

Below these values it starts to look much more ugly in the terms of required work and money...

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  #190 (permalink)
 sam028 
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Scalpguy View Post
Here in Helsinki it is quite the same 55 ms but here where I live (in Finland) it is something like 70 ms.

If I remember right the Rithmic gateway here in Europe is located in Ireland...

BUT when we are talking about the tick-to-confirmed trade executions times (which is what counts in algos) you can multiply these times something like 3-6x depending on the current net traffic.

So in the case of algos it is worth to invest something like 50 euros (or less) / mo and you will get something like 5-7 ms tick-to-trade consistently. 250e more and then you will get under 1 ms.

As Sam said this is guite low compared to costs.

Below these values it starts to look much more ugly in the terms of required work and money...

Correct.
The latency to the closest gateway is one thing, the overwall latency is something else. From Ireland it will have to travel through the Atlantic anyway for US based instruments (and also for risk management, I don't know if Rithmic have risk management server in Ireland).
Keep in mind that nothing can go faster than the speed of light (which is also at least 35% slower in optic fibre)

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 Scalpguy 
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sam028 View Post
...Keep in mind that nothing can go faster than the speed of light (which is also at least 35% slower in optic fibre)

From the infrastructure point of view I think today the radio waves gives you better execution for low quantity messaging such order handling is. Not sure about this just a quess

https://www.ft.com/content/2bf37898-b775-11e2-841e-00144feabdc0

Implementation over the atlantic ocean may give some challenge

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  #192 (permalink)
 andorre 
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Hi,

Last week and today I have problems with FDAX data from Rithmic/NinjaTrader.
Anyone else?
Thanks.

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  #193 (permalink)
 bobc635 
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In the past month, I have had 2 data outages. Both outages have occurred on Fridays. I use Ninja with Rithmic on the CL contract. It has been very reliable for several years. Has anyone else had a problem and does anyone know what has caused these problems? What do you think is the most reliable data source for Ninja???

Thanks
Bob

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 lancelottrader 
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bobc635 View Post
In the past month, I have had 2 data outages. Both outages have occurred on Fridays. I use Ninja with Rithmic on the CL contract. It has been very reliable for several years. Has anyone else had a problem and does anyone know what has caused these problems? What do you think is the most reliable data source for Ninja???

Thanks
Bob

Yes, as you say, it usually is very reliable. I've been very happy with it for many years..but there was a brief outage Friday.

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 BTR411 
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Does anyone know what is causing these data outages with Rithmic?

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BTR411 View Post
Does anyone know what is causing these data outages with Rithmic?

Typically outages are related to servers issues.
Although outages are unpleasant, and experienced by all data providers, Rithmic fixed the last one within minutes.
I have been using them for many years, and I find them reliable and very hands on when snags do occur.

Matt Z
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  #198 (permalink)
 warcious 
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I am going to use Rithmic to trade Futures, and I am wondering how I can check the latency to their servers using regular ping program. Does anybody know the IP to their Aurora server in IL?
Would Ninjatrader automatically know my location and direct me to RIthmics closest server online, or is there a configuration somewhere?

How do you guys measure the latency from trade to fill?

Thanks!

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warcious View Post
I am going to use Rithmic to trade Futures, and I am wondering how I can check the latency to their servers using regular ping program. Does anybody know the IP to their Aurora server in IL
Thanks!

As far as I know, Rithmic does not release their IP address; at least that was the policy in the past.
However, you can log in with your Rithmic credentials to R-Trader where they show the time of execution.
When you log in to R-Trader you can also choose the gateway.

I hope this helps.

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  #200 (permalink)
 warcious 
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mattz View Post
As far as I know, Rithmic does not release their IP address; at least that was the policy in the past.
However, you can log in with your Rithmic credentials to R-Trader where they show the time of execution.
When you log in to R-Trader you can also choose the gateway.

I hope this helps.

Matt Z
Optimus Futures

There is a substantial risk of loss in futures trading. Past performance is not indicative of future results.

That is a very helpful answer. So you can basically compare the time of execution from inside R-Trader with Ninjatrader time of execution. Now I think that Ninjatrader shows seconds, will have to figure out how to see microseconds if possible

Btw, do you offer trading Futures through Ninjatrader7, I believe I contacted you about this already but have not yet received a response.

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