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PFGBest Accounts Frozen (PFG scandal big thread)


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PFGBest Accounts Frozen (PFG scandal big thread)

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  #201 (permalink)
 brevco 
Denham Springs, LA
 
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Gregory, everything is frozen. I spoke with Neal at PFG and this is what he told me.




tickvix View Post
I have a stupid question. Does anyone know how current PFG issue effecting Forex account.
If anyone has any information please reply.

Thank you for your help.

Gregory


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  #202 (permalink)
 redratsal 
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Big Mike View Post
How did it go? I don't watch TV.

Mike

Impact on Traders, Investors of PFGBest?s Missing Funds

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  #203 (permalink)
 GridKing 
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Good job!

I don't even have a suit anymore lol ...

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  #204 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
I think it might be time to create a thread to help the small retail trader on how to do this type of research, what to ask etc. In any case, i thank you for reminding us some obvious considerations. BTW, i wonder what Mattz from optimus think about all this fiasco.

Not sure what to say. Sad for the guys from PFG.
I never had any association with PFG with the excpetions of a few phone calls where they wanted me to clear through them and I politely declined.

Sadly non of of the due diligence that a retail trader typically conducts would allow them to conclude that either one (MG, PFG) would go out of business. However, as an IB I choose FCMs based on the people that run them, experience, mentality, test under economic stress, compliance staff, etc and other variables that retail guys dont take into consideration.

FCMs are run by PEOPLE, and their culture and behaviour would dictate the direction whether it will be a success or a failure. so far I made the right choices and hope this will carry into the future.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
1 800 771 6748 local 561 367 8686 email support@OptimusFutures.com
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  #205 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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GridKing View Post
Good job!

I don't even have a suit anymore lol ...

I keep a really nice one to be buried in...


mattz View Post
Not sure what to say. Sad for the guys from PFG.
I never had any assication with PFG with the excpetions of a few phone calls where they wanted me to clear through them and I politely declined.

Sadly non of of the due diligence that a retail trader typically conducts would allow them to conclude that either one (MG, PFG) would go out of business. However, as an IB I choose FCMs based on the people that run them, experience, mentality, test under economic stress, compliance staff, etc and other variables that retail guys dont take into consideration.

FCMs are run by PEOPLE, and their culture and behaviour would dictate the direction whether it will be a success or a failure. so far I made the right choices and hope this will carry into the future.

@mattz

Who do you clear through?

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #206 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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kevinkdog View Post
Thanks for the kind words. First time doing that sort of thing, so I was just a bit nervous!

I will post a link when I get if from FBN.

@kevindog great job. You handled yourself well.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #207 (permalink)
 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
I keep a really nice one to be buried in...



@mattz

Who do you clear through?

Vision Financial Markets

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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  #208 (permalink)
 cory 
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brevco View Post
... I also heard that today Woodie was introducing a new "Woodie" bar called NADAX bars. ?? Wonder what that's all about.

looks like there is an extra X in there.

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  #209 (permalink)
 djkiwi 
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liquidcci View Post
Plus their feed is not fast or robust enough to day trade futures. If taking long term positions works fine but not for intra day stuff.

Hi @liquidcci

Actually if you use a ninjatrader multibroker license you can log on to the datafeed first (say CQG, Kinect or Zenfire) then next logon to IB then thirdly TD. This gets around the poor datafeeds of IB and TD. You can then direct trades to either AMP, IB or TD or any other ninja broker using chart trader or ATM strategies.

I'm doing this currently and it is a very efficient way of trading and spreading your risk. I'm a little unhappy with the lack of flexibility in a few areas though but this is the future for me. I will add a couple more accounts and then spread trades accordingly.

Cheers
DJ

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  #210 (permalink)
 GridKing 
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https://mrtopstep.com./2012/07/pfgbest-broken-promises-shattered-trust-how-it-went-down/

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  #211 (permalink)
 GridKing 
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https://mrtopstep.com./2012/07/pfgbest-broken-promises-shattered-trust-how-it-went-down/


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  #212 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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djkiwi View Post
Hi @liquidcci

Actually if you use a ninjatrader multibroker license you can log on to the datafeed first (say CQG, Kinect or Zenfire) then next logon to IB then thirdly TD. This gets around the poor datafeeds of IB and TD. You can then direct trades to either AMP, IB or TD or any other ninja broker using chart trader or ATM strategies.

I'm doing this currently and it is a very efficient way of trading and spreading your risk. I'm a little unhappy with the lack of flexibility in a few areas though but this is the future for me. I will add a couple more accounts and then spread trades accordingly.

Cheers
DJ

@djkiwi

TD doesn't mention Ninja trader under platforms on their website even though NT lists them as a broker. You actually send trades to TD from NT?

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #213 (permalink)
 shodson 
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Ah crap, Rosenthal Collins (my broker, Mirus Futures, clears through them) is ranked even lower than PFG on that Atlas report!


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  #214 (permalink)
 trendisyourfriend 
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mattz View Post
Not sure what to say. Sad for the guys from PFG.
I never had any association with PFG with the excpetions of a few phone calls where they wanted me to clear through them and I politely declined.

Sadly non of of the due diligence that a retail trader typically conducts would allow them to conclude that either one (MG, PFG) would go out of business. However, as an IB I choose FCMs based on the people that run them, experience, mentality, test under economic stress, compliance staff, etc and other variables that retail guys dont take into consideration.

FCMs are run by PEOPLE, and their culture and behaviour would dictate the direction whether it will be a success or a failure. so far I made the right choices and hope this will carry into the future.

@mattz

Thank you for replying quickly i appreciate. I was wondering about the 'other variables that retail guys dont take into consideration', what would you suggest we do/ask before selecting a broker? What do you think about PrivateBanker's recommendations here?

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  #215 (permalink)
karoshiman
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futuretrader View Post
I doubt that hoping they do it without real pressure from their clients is going to work; it's too useful and profitable for them to be able to dip into customers' accounts.

What we need is a forum for retail traders to organize and start pestering and pressuring their brokerage firms to either insure or truly segregate customers' funds. If a few of them change and then attract clients because they are safer, the industry will begin to change.

Hi futuretrader,

I agree to your first paragraph above.

But I doubt that a forum of retail traders will help much. The only thing that will surely change a thing in this industry IMO is masses of people withdrawing funds from their futures accounts, i.e. ceasing to trade futures at all. Only then, when the profits of the brokerage firms start to decrease considerably, will they start to change something...

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  #216 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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shodson View Post
Ah crap, Rosenthal Collins (my broker, Mirus Futures, clears through them) is ranked even lower than PFG on that Atlas report!


@shodson

I use Rosenthal Collins/Mirus Futures and had the same reaction also but...

1. Who the hell is Atlas ...

2. What is their standing in the industry ...

3. How do they arrive at their conclusions...


I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #217 (permalink)
karoshiman
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mattz View Post

...

However, as an IB I choose FCMs based on the people that run them, experience, mentality, test under economic stress, compliance staff, etc and other variables that retail guys dont take into consideration.

FCMs are run by PEOPLE, and their culture and behaviour would dictate the direction whether it will be a success or a failure. so far I made the right choices and hope this will carry into the future.


It's for sure right, that it's about the people. However, as one other futures.io (formerly BMT) member mentioned earlier, even a PFG employee who knew Wasendorf almost on a personal level, was apparently shocked about all this. So, for an outsider it is nearly impossible to judge about a company by knowing some of their managers. I guess, even if you knew Wasendorf personally, it would still be difficult to suspect something.

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  #218 (permalink)
 Haverchuck 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
@shodson

I use Rosenthal Collins/Mirus Futures and had the same reaction also but...

1. Who the hell is Atlas ...

2. What is their standing in the industry ...

3. How do they arrive at their conclusions...

It looks like their "CFCT/NFA Disciplinary Action" value could be skewing their numbers a bit, especially when you compare the other numbers to firms higher in the list. RCG was fined a few months ago for not cracking down on a single shady account hard enough (google "rosenthal collins group" and see a few entries down). This seems like a one-off type of event, but that could be wishful thinking (I'm also a RCG customer ;-)

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  #219 (permalink)
 djkiwi 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
@djkiwi

TD doesn't mention Ninja trader under platforms on their website even though NT lists them as a broker. You actually send trades to TD from NT?

Hi @ThatManFromTexas

For live trades through Ninja I've only used IB and AMP although not expecting any issues with TD as I am able to logon to my TD account through Ninja. If there are any issues I will report back.

Cheers
DJ

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  #220 (permalink)
karoshiman
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
@shodson

I use Rosenthal Collins/Mirus Futures and had the same reaction also but...

1. Who the hell is Atlas ...

2. What is their standing in the industry ...

3. How do they arrive at their conclusions...

...


From their website it looks like they just aggregate publicly available information (how should they get inside info...?).

Hence, I don't think that it is of much use.

The net capital figures and in- and outflows are reported by the companies themselves.

The only interesting red flags are regulatory or exchange actions and penalties or whether they have proprietary trading, but these can be researched by the retail clients on their own... no need for Atlas...

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  #221 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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Haverchuck View Post
It looks like their "CFCT/NFA Disciplinary Action" value could be skewing their numbers a bit, especially when you compare the other numbers to firms higher in the list. RCG was fined a few months ago for not cracking down on a single shady account hard enough (google "rosenthal collins group" and see a few entries down). This seems like a one-off type of event, but that could be wishful thinking (I'm also a RCG customer ;-)

@Haverchuck

Forget google, get it straight from the horses' mouth (CFTC) ...

Search Results: Rosenthal Collins Group, LLC

They've had numerous CFTC files,but that is to be expected for a 90 year old firm. The claims were mostly small grievances from individual clients that were settled "out of court" and the complaints were dropped.

There was one other significant charge of not paying close enough attention to a rogue client from Texas (not me...) for which they paid a fine. I didn't see anything serious like misappropriation of funds or falsifying statements.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #222 (permalink)
 TheWizard 
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shodson View Post
Ah crap, Rosenthal Collins (my broker, Mirus Futures, clears through them) is ranked even lower than PFG on that Atlas report!

I'm a Mirus customer & the daily statements I receive show Dorman Trading, LLC, not Rosenthal Collins. Please clarify.

After all, it's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!
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  #223 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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TheWizard View Post
I'm a Mirus customer & the daily statements I receive show Dorman Trading, LLC, not Rosenthal Collins. Please clarify.


@TheWizard

Mirus clears through both Dorman and Rosenthal Collins. You decide which one you want an account with when you open your account.

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #224 (permalink)
 heywally 
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I hope that everyone with PFG is able to eventually get their money back - this is truly frightening.

This kind of incident is why I have upped the paranoia level a bit and recently moved funds from one of the larger brokerages that specializes in low commission, low margin rate trading to another larger brokerage that enables active trading including futures but has their foundation -- and many user accounts -- in longer term investing. The commissions are not as good but I can sleep a little easier (I think.)

People on elitetrader are always discussing commissions, margin rates, platforms, leverage .... one of the first things they should consider is the apparent financial strength of the brokerage and then maybe even consider altering their trading styles (do less frequent trading) to compensate for higher commissions. It could end up being a win-win for some people.

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  #225 (permalink)
 heywally 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
@djkiwi

TD doesn't mention Ninja trader under platforms on their website even though NT lists them as a broker. You actually send trades to TD from NT?

Last I checked -- a few years ago -- you could do that but only to the 'TD side' (not TOS), which meant no futures trades.

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  #226 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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Recent letter I got from ThinkOrSwim/TDA about Forex trading. Nothing yet about PFG.

Though I did get this letter from RCG back when the MFGlobal news first went down.
Looks like it's still family owned and operated , yet the firm has been around almost a century.

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 traderwerks 
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Exclusive: Iowa futures broker forged bank records for years-source

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 heywally 
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liquidcci View Post
Plus their feed is not fast or robust enough to day trade futures. If taking long term positions works fine but not for intra day stuff.

Don't know if you've looked at their data feed and executions lately but I disagree with that, not that I think day trading the futures is a good idea for most people. I am getting instant executions via TOS and the data feed is 'keeping up' with several other ones I look at. I am running it on a pretty beefy PC though ....

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  #229 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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heywally View Post
Don't know if you've looked at their data feed and executions lately but I disagree with that, not that I think day trading the futures is a good idea for most people. I am getting instant executions via TOS and the data feed is 'keeping up' with several other ones I look at. I am running it on a pretty beefy PC though ....

Exactly. I compared time and sales with zenfire(mirus) on NT7 and TOS and while TOS is filtered they both updated the same instants at least as fast as my eyes could tell. And zenfire still slips plenty on CL. TOS was not any worse.

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  #230 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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heywally View Post
Don't know if you've looked at their data feed and executions lately but I disagree with that, not that I think day trading the futures is a good idea for most people. I am getting instant executions via TOS and the data feed is 'keeping up' with several other ones I look at. I am running it on a pretty beefy PC though ....

I use rithmic feed with a server located close to the exchange to trade mainly CL via automated strategies. I also have a TOS account (long time TOS user). Instant is relative. I do not believe TOS is even close in speed to rithmic. Sub ms very important for my AT strategies which I get with my rithmic setup. When dealing in miliseconds eyes can be deceiving. Don't get me wrong TOS is a great platform but not if need speed.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #231 (permalink)
 cory 
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no wonder he wanted to be gone, must have learned that trick from Madoff

Quoting 
Wasendorf had set up a post office box in Cedar Falls, Iowa, according to a second person involved in the matter. It was to that post office box that NFA sent the documents, which were addressed to the bank.

The post office box was neither in Wasendorf's name nor registered to the bank, the second person said.

Wasendorf then forged signatures and fabricated bank balances on the documents and simply mailed them back to the Chicago-based NFA, the person said.


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 GridKing 
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I wonder if anyone is checking the travel arrangements of other head honchos this week...

"Successful trading is one long journey, not a destination" Peter Borish Former Head of Research for Paul Tudor Jones speaking on conversations with John F. Carter
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 djkiwi 
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heywally View Post
Last I checked -- a few years ago -- you could do that but only to the 'TD side' (not TOS), which meant no futures trades.

@heywally, yes you right on futures for TD. I was talking equities as I only will be trading equities through TD via ninja. How are you finding the reliability of the datafeed on TOS? I used TOS quite a bit before the acquisition for my option trades but the datafeed was very erratic so stopped using it. It looks like they have improved it quite a bit post acquisition.

Cheers
DJ

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 mattz   is a Vendor
 
 
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trendisyourfriend View Post
@mattz

Thank you for replying quickly i appreciate. I was wondering about the 'other variables that retail guys dont take into consideration', what would you suggest we do/ask before selecting a broker? What do you think about PrivateBanker's recommendations here?

I was a bit different in my approach building my IB, I went to actually work for the FCM that I thought would clear my business in the future. I ended up there for almost three years.
Can a broker do more due diligence?

I don't know what else to add as far as what a retail trader can do for due diligence.
Here are the FCMs that I think are trust worthy: Vision, Dorman, Rosenthal and Crossland.
I am not saying that others are bad, I just trust these guys for a variety of reasons.
I trade exclusively via Vision at this point.

Trading futures and options involves substantial risk of loss and is not suitable for all investors. Past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results. You may lose more than your initial investment. All posts are opinions and do not claim to be facts. Please conduct your own due diligence. Use only Risk capital when trading Futures.
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 heywally 
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djkiwi View Post
@heywally, yes you right on futures for TD. I was talking equities as I only will be trading equities through TD via ninja. How are you finding the reliability of the datafeed on TOS? I used TOS quite a bit before the acquisition for my option trades but the datafeed was very erratic so stopped using it. It looks like they have improved it quite a bit post acquisition.

Cheers
DJ

I wasn't using TD/TOS very much back then and so can't compare but I'm using TOS as my main platform now and have been for about 2 months, trading mostly individual stocks/ETF's and futures. Near instantaneous executions and the data seems to flow with no problems. Running it on a well sized PC and also, on a MacAir.

"The Future Ain't what it used to be"
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 heywally 
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liquidcci View Post
I use rithmic feed with a server located close to the exchange to trade mainly CL via automated strategies. I also have a TOS account (long time TOS user). Instant is relative. I do not believe TOS is even close in speed to rithmic. Sub ms very important for my AT strategies which I get with my rithmic setup. When dealing in miliseconds eyes can be deceiving. Don't get me wrong TOS is a great platform but not if need speed.

Yes, instant is relative and some moves are fake-outs and others aren't. My trading style doesn't require a HFT type response, I just want it to always be running smoothly and very close to the other mainstream feeds I see out there. And, I do put a lot more importance on the brokerage business model and financial position than some others, relative to data speed.

"The Future Ain't what it used to be"
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 Skidboot 
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Check your FCM's Background Affiliation Status here...

BASIC Search

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 heywally 
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Chapter 7

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 Skidboot 
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WOW..Check this out..

RCG with tons of CFTC/NFA fines..one over1.6 mil in april 2012...

Case Information

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 optionzen 
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I am really sorry for folks here who have their account with PFG. I really hope every one get their money back. I have an account with Optimus and Vision as its clearing firm, matt is a great guy no doubt. The client money is with the segregated account via Harris BK.
Vision states on its website that their account are protected : Vision Financial Markets - Futures, Securities & Options | Brokerage, Clearing & Technology

Vision Financial Markets LLC is a member of the Securities Investor Protection Corporation (SIPC) which protects customer accounts for up to $500,000 (of which up to $250,000 may be for cash). This protection does not safeguard against a decline or loss in market value of the securities in your account. For more information, read our Asset Protection Brochure.

Does it mean if any thing happens as PFG or MFG magnitude the accounts will be protected? I am just getting bit nervous .

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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shanmugs View Post
WOW..Check this out..

RCG with tons of CFTC/NFA fines..one over1.6 mil in april 2012...

Case Information

@shanmugs

Get it straight from the horses' mouth (CFTC) ...

Search Results: Rosenthal Collins Group, LLC

The fine you mentioned was for not monitoring an account closely enough of a customer that ended up using it for a ponzi scheme .

They've had numerous CFTC files,but that is to be expected for a 90 year old firm. The claims were mostly small grievances from individual clients that were settled "out of court" and the complaints were dropped.

There was one other significant charge of not paying close enough attention to a rogue client from Texas (not me...) for which they paid a fine.

I didn't see anything serious like misappropriation of funds or falsifying statements.



optionzen View Post
I am really sorry for folks here who have their account with PFG. I really hope every one get their money back. I have an account with Optimus and Vision as its clearing firm, matt is a great guy no doubt. The client money is with the segregated account via Harris BK.
Vision states on its website that their account are protected : Vision Financial Markets - Futures, Securities & Options | Brokerage, Clearing & Technology

Vision Financial Markets LLC is a member of the Securities Investor Protection Corporation (SIPC) which protects customer accounts for up to $500,000 (of which up to $250,000 may be for cash). This protection does not safeguard against a decline or loss in market value of the securities in your account. For more information, read our Asset Protection Brochure.

Does it mean if any thing happens as PFG or MFG magnitude the accounts will be protected? I am just getting bit nervous .

@optionzen

Unfortunately the SIPC doesn't cover futures. Sorry.

In general, SIPC covers stocks, bonds, mutual funds, notes, other investment company shares, and other registered securities. It does not cover instruments such as unregistered investment contracts, unregistered limited partnerships, fixed annuity contracts, currency, and interests in gold, silver, or other commodity futures contracts or commodity options.

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 Cloudy 
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cory View Post
no wonder he wanted to be gone, must have learned that trick from Madoff

Horrible. Intercepting documents and forging signatures. For sure this is going to be made into another episode of CNBC's "American Greed".

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 olobay 
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Why do we pay CFTC and NFA fees on every transaction we make? Can somebody explain that to me? Aren't they there to protect us investors?

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 Midas 
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Here is some contact info at NFA for PFG customers.


Important Message for Customers of Peregrine Financial Group and Peregrine Asset Management

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karoshiman
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heywally View Post

...

This kind of incident is why I have upped the paranoia level a bit and recently moved funds from one of the larger brokerages that specializes in low commission, low margin rate trading to another larger brokerage that enables active trading including futures but has their foundation -- and many user accounts -- in longer term investing. The commissions are not as good but I can sleep a little easier (I think.)

...


Hi heywally,

Which firm is the larger brokerage you are talking about? I'm curious about potential alternatives...

Thanks,
k

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 optionzen 
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Thanks for the information Manfromtexas, Lets says my cash account with a futures broker is not protected, even though vision says that there is protection upto 250K . It says that the investment loss are not covered but the cash value is protected. Can you please explain if the cash in the account if not traded is still not protected ??????

Vision Financial Markets LLC is a member of the Securities Investor Protection Corporation (SIPC) which protects customer accounts for up to $500,000 (of which up to $250,000 may be for cash). This protection does not safeguard against a decline or loss in market value of the securities in your account. For more information, read our Asset Protection Brochure.


MAY be Matt from optimusfutures Can explain more on the protection provided...

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 djkiwi 
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Cloudy View Post
Horrible. Intercepting documents and forging signatures. For sure this is going to be made into another episode of CNBC's "American Greed".

The question here is why in this electronic age were there pieces of paper being mailed and signed at all? Surely electronic monitoring mechanisms should have been placed years ago between the bank and the regulators. It even took them over 9 months after the MF Global collapse to get electronic monitoring in place which is the only reason he would have been found out. Electronic monitoring should been in place Day 1 priority after the MF Global fiasco. Not that it would have helped the clients as the money was stolen a couple of years back.

The other point to note is the regulators themselves did not apply basic common sense. I suspect at some point the CEO of PFG wrote a forged letter to the regulators impersonating the bank. The letter would have told them the bank had moved location and to now send the documents to the new PO Box he had setup. This enabled him to intercept the documents. You would think the regulator would have applied common sense and instead of taking this letter at face value would have at least phoned the bank to see that this was a legitimate request.

As a first step right now the regulators should check their records and make sure they don't have any other phony letters from Broker banks saying they have moved....

Cheers
DJ

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 liquidcci 
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optionzen View Post
Thanks for the information Manfromtexas, Lets says my cash account with a futures broker is not protected, even though vision says that there is protection upto 250K . It says that the investment loss are not covered but the cash value is protected. Can you please explain if the cash in the account if not traded is still not protected ??????

Vision Financial Markets LLC is a member of the Securities Investor Protection Corporation (SIPC) which protects customer accounts for up to $500,000 (of which up to $250,000 may be for cash). This protection does not safeguard against a decline or loss in market value of the securities in your account. For more information, read our Asset Protection Brochure.


MAY be Matt from optimusfutures Can explain more on the protection provided...

@optionzen SIPC does not cover futures accounts it covers securities accounts. If you trade futures at VFM your account is a futures account and is not insured under SIPC.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 ThatManFromTexas 
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optionzen View Post
Thanks for the information Manfromtexas, Lets says my cash account with a futures broker is not protected, even though vision says that there is protection upto 250K . It says that the investment loss are not covered but the cash value is protected. Can you please explain if the cash in the account if not traded is still not protected ??????

.

@optionzen


The SIPC was created due to a financial crisis in the equities market. From Wikipedia ...

SIPC was born in the shadow of the "Paperwork Crunch" of 1968-70 as a means to restore confidence in the U.S. securities market. During this period, An explosion in the volume of trading had occurred. A system designed to handle an average three million share trading day was incapable of dealing with the thirteen million share trading day common in the late 1960's. The resultant breakdown in the securities processing mechanism caused chaos as the number of errors in recording transactions multiplied ... In December 1968, member firms of the New York Stock Exchange had $4.4 billion in "fails to deliver" and $4.7 billion in "fails to receive." Brokers and dealers were finding it difficult, if not impossible, to ascertain their own financial condition.' ... This operational and financial crisis forced more than one hundred brokerage firms into liquidation causing thousands of customers to be seriously disadvantaged.

In response, the Securities Investor Protection Act of 1970 was enacted as a way to quell investor insecurity and save the securities market from a financial crisis.

Should there be an SIPC for the futures market... in my opinion ... yes ... but in the current political climate anything that hints of regulation or government involvement would never be approved by Congress.

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 traderwerks 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post

Should there be an SIPC for the futures market... in my opinion ... yes ... but in the current political climate anything that hints of regulation or government involvement would never be approved by Congress.

True, more regulation will probably not happen.

I wish they could have 'excess margin' covered by SIPC, or swept into a FDIC insured account, but that won't happen either. Part of the vig they get from 'excess margin' would be eaten up.

Math. A gateway drug to reality.
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 AuburnTrader 
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Interesting interview on PFG

Ex-PFGBest Employee: Several Red Flags Raised From January

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 Jura 
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bob5e View Post
IB customers can setup a securities sweep acct that is protected by SIPC. It appears that the default setting is not to sweep.

Thanks for mentioning that here - I wasn't aware of that as an IB customer. Definitely something I'll need to look into. Thanks again!


Cloudy View Post
Though I did get this letter from RCG back when the MFGlobal news first went down.
Looks like it's still family owned and operated , yet the firm has been around almost a century.

I thought, perhaps somewhat naively, that it was a good case such firms are privately owned and run by the founder (or founder's family). I figured that, if you worked at your family's firm, you would be more prudent than if you're one of the thousands employees at a big, "face less" company. Or that if you build something yourself from the ground up, you would be very risk-averse and oriented on the long-term of your company.

Apparently I was wrong - but I still can't understand well why the owner of a company that he worked 30+ years hard for to establish, does such a thing. What was he thinking?



Quote from that article:


Quoting 
The source offered new details on how Wasendorf allegedly carried out the deceit, which involved the forging of confidential documents that the NFA uses to verify a broker's cash balance with its depository institution.

Wasendorf had set up a post office box in Cedar Falls, Iowa, according to a second person involved in the matter. It was to that post office box that NFA sent the documents, which were addressed to the bank.

So apparently, there were at least two other people besides Wasendorf that weren't involved but very knowledgeable about these irregular actions. I'm wondering why these people didn't raise any red flags with the regulators - such a thing can be done anonymously I assume?

The thing I personally find the worst in this case, besides the fraud itself, is that other people just didn't seem to care. The regulators apparently did the bare minimum that was required by American law (and left their work at exactly five o'clock ) and the sources (apparently working at PGFBest) just shrugged their shoulders and thought "oh it will be okay, I can't be bothered".

At least, that's how it looks to me (but from the outside it's always easy to judge).

Edit: in defence of the people working at the American regulators: they might be seriously understaffed, which causes them to not be able to do their job properly/completely. Let's not hope that's the case, since then a lot of brokers aren't regulated properly as it should be.

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 Big Mike 
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Remember the NFA isn't a governmental body, it is "self regulated" by the industry.

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 Cloudy 
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Jura View Post
I thought, perhaps somewhat naively, that it was a good case such firms are privately owned and run by the founder (or founder's family). I figured that, if you worked at your family's firm, you would be more prudent than if you're one of the thousands employees at a big, "face less" company. Or that if you build something yourself from the ground up, you would be very risk-averse and oriented on the long-term of your company.

Apparently I was wrong - but I still can't understand well why the owner of a company that he worked 30+ years hard for to establish, does such a thing. What was he thinking?

If you watch episodes of CNBC's "American Greed" you can see multiple cases of fraud by megalomaniacs or people who lost it when they found how to make big wealth of many millions no matter how illegal. Just my speculation, maybe Wassendorf at his age felt the need, however misguided and detrimental to the clientele, to build something bigger and lasting in his lifetime no matter the cost or risk (like Corzine). There was that news video mentioned earlier where he was investing in other businesses and public utilities outside of the brokerage.

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 Big Mike 
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Great interview, watch



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 Big Mike 
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Peter Brandt yesterday on Bloomberg on PFG, discussing incompetence of CFTC


Bloomberg Video


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Source: PGF Files Chapter 7 | ZeroHedge


Quoting 
Peregrine Financial Group Inc, the regulated unit of the brokerage PFGBest, has filed to liquidate under Chapter 7 of the U.S. bankruptcy code, a court filing shows.

Tuesday's filing with the U.S. bankruptcy court shows that Peregrine has between $500 million and $1 billion of assets, between $100 million and $500 million of liabilities, and between 10,000 and 25,000 creditors.

A board resolution authorizing the bankruptcy was signed by President Russell Wasendorf Jr, who also signed on behalf of Chairman Russell Wasendorf Sr.

The resolution said Russell Wasendorf Jr was empowered to act for Russell Wasendorf Sr in the event the latter became incapacitated, under a power of attorney dated July 3.


Quoting 
Russell Wasendorf Sr attempted suicide on July 9.

Thompson said in a phone interview today that Wasendorf was found in his car with a note, the contents of which the sheriff declined to divulge. A hose ran from the vehicle’s exhaust pipe into the passenger compartment, he said.

An officer with the sheriff’s office arrived just after 8 a.m. yesterday at Peregrine offices, where paramedics were attending to Wasendorf, according to an incident report e-mailed to Bloomberg News.

Wasendorf was breathing as he was taken from his car and was incoherent, according to the report. He was later airlifted to University of Iowa Hospitals in Iowa City, it said.

“A note was found in the vehicle that indicated possible discrepancies with accounts at Peregrine Financial Group,” according to the report.




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 heywally 
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Jura View Post

....

Apparently I was wrong - but I still can't understand well why the owner of a company that he worked 30+ years hard for to establish, does such a thing. What was he thinking?

....

Honestly, I don't know how anyone can live with themselves after doing something like this -- something he didn't need to do to be comfortable -- to so many people. How would someone feel sitting on their death bed with this kind of rip-off sitting on their shoulder?

"The Future Ain't what it used to be"
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 heywally 
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Jura View Post
in defence of the people working at the American regulators: they might be seriously understaffed, which causes them to not be able to do their job properly/completely. Let's not hope that's the case, since then a lot of brokers aren't regulated properly as it should be.

And beyond being understaffed, the system itself and those closer to the top may 'encourage' them to do nothing.

"The Future Ain't what it used to be"
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  #260 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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heywally View Post
Honestly, I don't know how anyone can live with themselves after doing something like this -- something he didn't need to do to be comfortable -- to so many people. How would someone feel sitting on their death bed with this kind of rip-off sitting on their shoulder?

If you've seen the movie "Rogue Trader", you can get an appreciation for how something can snowball out of control. I am not saying that is what happened here, as it seems to just be a case of greed, but it does remind us how an initial small "error" can turn into a huge one very quickly, and you can get caught up in it.

Like everyone else has pointed out, the issue here is not in stopping someone from committing a crime, as that is unlikely. The issue is protecting the innocent, in this case the depositors.

Hopefully we'll see some form of insurance as a result of this.

Also, I am not exactly clear on the exact responsibilities with this particular case when it comes to NFA and CFTC. I need to learn more about this. I know CFTC has brought suit, and as a governmental body has authority to prosecute. But it is not clear how the oversight worked on a day-to-day basis (to me), which seemed to fall more on the NFA, which has no real authority. The NFA is like being a member of the BBB...

Mike

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 Big Mike 
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heywally View Post
And beyond being understaffed, the system itself and those closer to the top may 'encourage' them to do nothing.

It seems the CFO may be in on it too, in this case.

Mike

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 heywally 
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Big Mike View Post
It seems the CFO may be in on it too, in this case.

Mike

Makes it much easier to mask things .....

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 websouth 
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Big Mike View Post

Like everyone else has pointed out, the issue here is not in stopping someone from committing a crime, as that is unlikely. The issue is protecting the innocent, in this case the depositors.

Hopefully we'll see some form of insurance as a result of this.

Mike

You can buy insurance on whether or not you can make a basketball shot from mid-court.... I would imagine you can buy insurance for your broker going bust. Nobody likes insurance until they need it. Private insurance would be the free market solution. (free market solutions = possibly long gone fantasies) The gov't regulators and such just provide an illusion of safety and no real protection. How many examples do we need. If they did not exist then people would think more of their own protection, have more of the wild wild west mentality mentioned earlier (wasn't so wild - but discussion for another day), and more groups like the independent ratings agency you mentioned would exist (and eventually garner credibility) and more people (a bulk of them) would look into private insurance....then the price would be competitive...etc.
Everyone has a battery backup and internet backup yet nothing in place for this...why? Comfortable with the "regulated" futures industry.

++++++++++++

That being said I am sorry for traders who lost accounts in this. It is a dupe on many many different levels. Possible solutions such as multiple brokers, withdrawing profits regularly, etc which are all forms of insurance have been proposed in the thread so purchasing private insurance is another idea.

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 binary 
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source : Barnhardt.biz - Commodity Brokerage

I HAVE INFO FOR ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SUE THE NFA

POSTED BY ANN BARNHARDT - JULY 10, AD 2012 4:59 PM MST
The National Futures Association needs to be sued into the ground by all of the PFGBest customers, as well as many of the NFA employees PERSONALLY.
In 2010 I was audited by the NFA, which is a bi-annual (every two years) occurrence for Independent Introducing Brokers. The NFA tried to tell me that a commercial hedge broker could not execute more than one round-turn per client per cash inventory cycle.

Yes, I kid you not. They actually tried to make that argument. As in a feedlot or rancher who is hedged with short futures and has a big open profit on the hedge MAY NOT exit that short futures and buy puts in order to manage that position. Or, if a hedger has an option position that has a big open profit, the hedger may NOT roll that option position into a different strike price in order to capture equity and protect against time value erosion.

The NFA actually tried to argue that it is against the law for a hedge broker to transact more than one round-turn per cash commodity inventory cycle. Again, I can't make this crap up. I have all of their stunningly ignorant letters to prove all of this.

But here is the point, and anyone out there who is a PFGBest customer or an attorney representing a PFGBest customer needs to listen up:

The same "Senior Compliance Manager" who signed off on the PFGBest affadavit and who is listed on the NFA website as both the "Director of Audits/Investigations" and the "Director of FOREX Compliance", Lauren Brinati, is the same woman whom I and my attorneys dealt with two years ago.

Now, hold on to your pantyhose.

One of my attorneys in the Schuyler Roche Crisham firm in Chicago, as livid as I was by the NFA's galactically stupid contention about hedgers being limited to one round-turn per cash inventory cycle, called Lauren Brinati to discuss the NFA's position. Lauren Brinati said that she couldn't discuss the matter with my attorney directly because:

"I don't actually understand any of this stuff. I just sign whatever comes across my desk."
Lauren Brinati, June 2010

Lauren Brinati said that to my attorney in June of 2010.

This woman is DIRECTOR OF AUDITS AND INVESTIGATIONS, and openly stated that not only did she have no understanding of the futures and options industry, but also admitted freely that she was a de facto robosigner who signed off on ANYTHING that came down from above.

The NFA had full, direct auditing oversight of PFGBest because PFGBest was a non-clearing FCM. The Director of NFA Audits and Investigations, Lauren Brinati, admitted freely to my attorney that she lacked even rudimentary understanding of the industry, could not discuss even the simplest concepts, and signed whatever came across her desk from on high without understanding it.

Anyone who is interested in pursuing this as evidence of gross negligence and breach of fiduciary duty by the NFA, and Lauren Brinati personally, should have their attorney contact me.

UPDATE: The NFA was mailing bank account confirmations to an UNVERIFIED PO BOX in CEDAR FALLS, IOWA that was actually rented by Russell Wasendorf, Sr. That's how he was faking the balance confirms. That's right, Lauren Brinati and the NFA auditing crew snail mailed account balance confirms, confirming HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS in customer funds to an UNVERIFIED PO BOX in CEDAR FALLS, IOWA. You simply cannot make this shit up.

Here is the Reuters citation.

UPDATE 2: Just in case you didn't catch it, Russell Wasendorf, Sr. currently sits on the NFA's FCM Advisory Board. Go ahead and screen capture the following URL before they scrub it.

Advisory Committee

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bornwarrior
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I think you should forward this information to the press to raise broad based awareness and therefore trigger faster housekeeping.
Serious allegations here, and if you have documentations, it might help improve the industry for all of us. Capitalism can only function if we flush out incompetence mercilessly.

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 cory 
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Quoting 
This woman is DIRECTOR OF AUDITS AND INVESTIGATIONS, and openly stated that not only did she have no understanding of the futures and options industry, ...

that is my general assessment of the whole regulator agencies, they have no idea of what they are regulating.
ps. when I file tax I always file it under this assumption.

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 furytrader 
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traderwerks View Post
True, more regulation will probably not happen.

I wish they could have 'excess margin' covered by SIPC, or swept into a FDIC insured account, but that won't happen either. Part of the vig they get from 'excess margin' would be eaten up.

Futures brokers are going to quickly discover that when they attempt to cold call a prospect, they will have the specter of MF Global and PFGBest thrown back in their face.

They MUST come up with some kind of solution that allows them to truthfully say, "That can never happen now" ... and the only way they can do that, in my opinion, is to go the SIPC route. Otherwise, there will be no retail futures business.

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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furytrader View Post
Futures brokers are going to quickly discover that when they attempt to cold call a prospect, they will have the specter of MF Global and PFGBest thrown back in their face.

They MUST come up with some kind of solution that allows them to truthfully say, "That can never happen now" ... and the only way they can do that, in my opinion, is to go the SIPC route. Otherwise, there will be no retail futures business.

Or they could just offer lower commissions, lower margin requirements and lower amounts required to open an account ... and be swamped with applications....

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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 TrendTraderBH 
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In this Industry where most don't make money....it's tough to see that it may start turning out to be easier to lose money without trading than with it....

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 Sunil P 
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last time I am signing up for their demo NT and data. The gall of some people.

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 olobay 
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Just spoke with Susan O'Meara, PFGBest's compliance officer and she had nothing new to add. She told me that PFGBest is still not flat, meaning there are still some open positions and they can't do anything while these positions are still open. I'm surprised there is someone still answering phone calls at PFG.

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 Koepisch 
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This is your day! If you want to gain additional market shares then PROVE (and again and again) that you are making fair business and you are honest to your customers. Show financial transparency and provide real segregated accounts (like swiss forex broker dukascopy does). There is enough money at the table thru commissions - don't play with the customers money. We don't need NFA stuff if they can't do the simplest checks.

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 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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olobay View Post
Just spoke with Susan O'Meara, PFGBest's compliance officer and she had nothing new to add. She told me that PFGBest is still not flat, meaning there are still some open positions and they can't do anything while these positions are still open. I'm surprised there is someone still answering phone calls at PFG.

I did not get a statement last night, and my online platform still shows I have open positions. It also says I need $2.4 million in margin for 7 open positions (probably to force the margin call liquidation). I have no idea if this is true or not.


As of right now, I am assuming my account balance is $0. Any increase from here will be an incredible rate of return!

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 Jura 
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Statement from Mirus Futures with regards to the PFGBest fraud:


Quoting 
With the recent developments in the futures industry, Mirus is proud to partner with both Dorman Trading and Rosenthal Collins Group as our Futures Commissions Merchants for clearing.

Both Dorman and RCG are direct clearing member firms of the exchanges as opposed to a non-clearing FCM similar to PFGBest. Clearing FCMs are required to hold substantial deposits with the clearing house of member exchanges.

All of your funds devoted to domestic futures trading are held as “Customer Segregated” funds by Dorman or RCG and they are separate and secure from the FCMs own funds and creditors. The “Customer Segregated” funds are invested in overnight deposits, US Treasury Bills, or are on deposit at CME or ICE Clearing. The funds are not held in exotic investments and both Dorman and RCG will continue to hold “Customer Segregated” funds in prudent deposits.

Both firms are committed to full transparency and make their financial statements available for public viewing:

https://dormantrading.com/pdf/2011DormanAudit.pdf
https://www.rcgdirect.com/Docs/2011FinancialStatement.pdf

As announced by the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission in November following the MF Global liquidation, both Dorman and RCG were considered to be two of a limited number of clearing members in good standing by the CME likely to receive customer accounts. In addition, RCG also began publicly posting their investment holdings at that time for customer segregated funds on a monthly basis.

We understand the concern among traders following the recent news and are available to discuss any questions you may have. The safety and security of your funds are primary concerns for those of us here at Mirus and our FCM partners. We will continue to focus on prudent operations and management with the welfare of our customers as our top priority.

Please feel free to contact your Mirus broker or our support team at support@mirusfutures.com for additional information.

Sincerely,

Eliot Wickersheimer
Chief Executive Officer
Mirus Futures

Source: Mirus Futures - July Update

++

I guess we'll just have to take their word for it.

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 Jura 
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Big Mike View Post
Like everyone else has pointed out, the issue here is not in stopping someone from committing a crime, as that is unlikely. The issue is protecting the innocent, in this case the depositors.

They heard you Mike.


Quoting 
CFTC's Gensler Calls for More Customer Protection

-- Regulators are considering greater protections for customer funds

-- Regulators are "vigorously" pursuing case against PFG Best

-- Gensler says CFTC is underfunded

WASHINGTON--Regulators should adopt greater protections for customer money kept at futures firms, Commodity Futures Trading Commission Chairman Gary Gensler said Tuesday, after regulators filed a complaint against the founder of futures broker PFGBest for allegedly committing fraud.

"If somebody is going to defraud their regulators, effectively lie, we're going to vigorously pursue that and that's what you're seeing here," Gensler said after a CFTC meeting.

Gensler said that the CFTC should pass rules that "further enhance segregation of customer funds."

Gensler also said that CFTC staff is working on "recommendations on enhanced internal controls and transparency" for customer money held by futures firms.

CFTC Commissioner Bart Chilton said that the PFGBest case is another reason why regulators need to continue with the 2010 Dodd-Frank financial regulatory overhaul.

The CFTC earlier this year conducted a spot check of all futures-commission merchants, including PFGBest, where it found no material breaches of customer-funds-protection requirements.

Gensler and other commissioners first learned about the problems at PFGBest Monday afternoon, he said.

The National Futures Association, the futures industry's self-regulatory body, said Monday it had taken an emergency enforcement action against broker PFGBest's parent company, Peregrine Financial Group Inc.

Gensler said that the agency relies on self-regulatory agencies to do audits and reviews of futures firms because it is underfunded.

Source: CFTC's Gensler Calls for More Customer Protection

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 olobay 
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New email from PFG.


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 brevco 
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cory View Post
looks like there is an extra X in there.

Not sure, Cory. That's what I was told. I didn't see anything about it. I just can't imagine how many more bar types can be developed that we haven't already seen right here on futures.io (formerly BMT). If you mean "Nada" or zilch, zip, nothing, you're probably right. It means "nothing." lol

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 TrendTraderBH 
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No offense intended to Mirus/RCG/Dorman or anyone else for that matter but talk is cheap right now....actions will speak louder than words going forward on this issue imho. The rest is just political mumbo jumbo.

I'd like to see one of these brokerage and/or FCM CEO take a leadership role and make a difference for the good of the Industry.

Our Industry and our Country for that matter lack true leaders who care more about customers/constituents than their position/paycheck/etc.....sad!

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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Jura View Post
Statement from Mirus Futures with regards to the PFGBest fraud:



Source: Mirus Futures - July Update

++

I guess we'll just have to take their word for it.

Maybe we could get a Canadian account... they are insured...




I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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 olobay 
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Maybe things will start to move quickly now on the US side?

https://www.rjobrien.ca/documents/canada/peregrine_financial_group_canada.pdf

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  #281 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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olobay View Post
Maybe things will start to move quickly now on the US side?

https://www.rjobrien.ca/documents/canada/peregrine_financial_group_canada.pdf


I vote that all us old guys move to Canada , get good health care and insured futures accounts....

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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 TheWizard 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
I vote that all us old guys move to Canada , get good health care and insured futures accounts....

Yeah, but that cold weather is HELL on my arthur-itis., but living there would have some benefits!

After all, it's what you learn AFTER you know it all, that counts!
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 olobay 
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Commodity Customer Coalition | Fighting for the Quick Return of 100% of Customer Assets in the MF Global Bankruptcy

Most recent info is about PFG.

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 Jura 
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This research was ironically released on the same day the PFG fraud came to light. Since this thread also has some comments about the futures business and the integrity of the brokers in it, I thought it was interesting:


Quoting 
Wall Street Short on Ethics, Report Finds

How ethical is Wall Street?

It is a question that has been asked countless times since the financial crisis, especially when scandals like the rate-rigging case at Barclays and prominent insider trading trials expose questionable behavior in the financial industry. A new study offers an answer: Wall Street is not very ethical at all.

According to the law firm Labaton Sucharow, which represents investors and whistle-blowers, 24 percent of Wall Street workers who participated in a study said they believed unethical or illegal behavior could help people in their industry be successful. In addition, 26 percent of respondents said they had observed or had firsthand knowledge of wrongdoing in the workplace.

The study, which involved 500 financial workers in the United States and Britain, also found that 30 percent of respondents said their compensation structure created pressure to compromise their standards or violate the law. And 16 percent of respondents said they would commit insider trading if they believed they could get away with it.

Source & full article: Wall Street Short on Ethics, Report Finds - NYTimes.com

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 Jura 
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olobay View Post
Maybe things will start to move quickly now on the US side?

https://www.rjobrien.ca/documents/canada/peregrine_financial_group_canada.pdf

I hope it for those concerned, but apparently the CFTC has shut the door:


Quoting 
The company filed for bankruptcy Tuesday under Chapter 7 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code, usually the course companies take toward liquidation. But the CFTC action seeks a restraining order to freeze assets, appoint a receiver and preserve records. It also seeks restitution, and civil monetary penalties.

Source & full article: UPDATE: Peregrine files for bankruptcy, feds seek to freeze assets

I don't know though how long such a 'freeze' normally last - perhaps other users know that?

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  #286 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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Big Mike View Post
It seems the CFO may be in on it too, in this case.

Mike


The customer who ran a precious metals business interviewed in "Capital Account" mentioned her too. (12:05 minutes in video) How could she not know..

PFGBEST | Leadership
https://www.pfgbest.com/about/press/brendaCuypers.asp

For Investors and Customers, PFG is MF Global all Over Again... - YouTube

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 olobay 
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Interesting.

Boloutika: Why #PFG is REALLY not #MFG

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  #288 (permalink)
 djkiwi 
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Hi. As mentioned in an earlier post, you have far greater exposure to theft if the broker is owned by one or a few people.

This is because there will likely be few or no compliance staff with the broker being in full control of the finances. At least with some of the larger brokers including Interactive Brokers, TD Ameritrade there needs to be collusion with multiple individuals across multiple departments to pull off grand scale theft. This is how Bernie Madoff got away with things for so long as it was only him and one or two others.

Because you have no insurance with futures and self regulation appears to be little more than a "friendship" club for the "old boys" of the industry, you are nearly solely reliant on the honesty of the owner/broker. But then you think, "I'm ok because my broker is such a nice guy". Then you remind yourself that so was Bernie Madoff by all accounts. Here is another fraud case from today with a supposed nice guy:

Banker sends confession, vanishes near Key West - Business - US business - msnbc.com

"Wendy Cross moved about $300,000 to Price's firm after a trusted financial adviser told her it would be a good investment. She met Price in person once. She described a very religious, soft-spoken man with a gentle demeanor and an air of kindness."

What would assist in putting some jittery minds at rest would be for the owners or representatives of the firms doing business with members of futures.io (formerly BMT) to post certified copies of their current segregated fund bank statement showing total client funds (details can be shaded out) and their total client fund ledger(confidential info shaded out).

This is not suggesting in anyway that futures.io (formerly BMT) member brokers are dishonest but this type of proof and assurance would go a long way to calming the nerves of clients.

Cheers
DJ

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 Big Mike 
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Yes and one thing people have to understand.... I've seen several posts about people wanting to move to a larger, safer institution. MF Global was huge, and incredibly unsafe.

The days of looking for size as protection are gone. Looking at numbers on a piece of paper or in an Excel column are worthless, since the numbers are fabricated easily.

The point is, you can't trust anyone or anything right now. And this will remain the case until their is legislation which basically provides insurance for customers (SIPC/FDIC type).

I think this will happen eventually. But the question is what happens between now and then.

Basically, if you are a professional trader you simply need to be smart. You can't just take all your money out and wait on the sidelines. But you can make sure your account balance is only what it really needs to be, and not more.

Mike

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 olobay 
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That's why my next futures broker will be in Canada where I am protected by IIROC and CIPF, even though margins and minimum account deposits are higher.

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 aligator 
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That's why my next futures broker will be in Canada where I am protected by IIROC and CIPF, even though margins and minimum account deposits are higher.

So, who are these players in Canada?

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 TrendTraderBH 
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Just got this in my email inbox. Let the feeding frenzy begin lol. At least they didn't bother stating how safe they were.

Are you mining for a new Futures Brokerage Firm? If you are, the Ira Epstein Division of the Linn Group welcomes your account.

If you're reading this, it means that in the recent past you experienced our market research, trading platform(s) and know that we offer one-on-one service to our customers.

Ira Epstein has been a "fixture" in the futures business for over 40-years. The Linn Group, Inc. has been in business for 35 years. The combination is one of stability and market experience.

The closing of Peregrine Futures, PFG Best has provided you with an opportunity to get your account moved to the Ira Epstein Division of the Linn Group. Why not take advantage of it and let us help you move your trading account.

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 jungian 
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You are now chatting with 'RJO Canada Online'
RJO Canada Online: hi
you: Hello, in light of the recent things with PFG best in U.S. I am enquiring re: opening up a futures account w/ a Canadian firm. Is RJ a clearing firm or do they offer their own platform? Do you have any info on day margins? Contract roundtrip fee structure?
you: I am a Canadian citizen.
RJO Canada Online: we have our own trading system
RJO Canada Online: margin is same for day and overnight, 4500 for emini
RJO Canada Online: and round trip commission depends on how much you trade
you: CL, 6E?
you: Less than 200 roundtrips per month
you: margins and roundtrips for CL and 6E I am interested in aswell
RJO Canada Online: $5 a round trip
you: All in? $5?
RJO Canada Online: $5 commission plus exchange fees
you: Margins for CL, ES?
you: sorry 6E I meant not ES
RJO Canada Online: yep euro currency 4725
RJO Canada Online: crude 6210
you: Those are rather hefty margins for intraday. Intraday and overnight are same yes?
RJO Canada Online: yes
RJO Canada Online: correct
RJO Canada Online: with the current situation
you:
you: LOL
RJO Canada Online: canadian regulators are beliving more they are doing the right thing
RJO Canada Online: therefore we have to follow
you: just out of curiosity, what were they pre-MF Global, and before 2009?
you: margins I mean sorry
RJO Canada Online: same
RJO Canada Online: well
RJO Canada Online: canada used to allow intra day half margin untill 2010
RJO Canada Online: thats before mf

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 jungian 
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By the way PFG Canada's customers were protected...

ANd RJ OBrien are the ones taking the reins in Canada.....

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 jungian 
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R.J.O'Brien & Associates Canada Inc - Home



And Canada day was just 10 days ago I feel more patriotic than ever.

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 aligator 
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In case you wonder what is going to happen to PFG accounts in Canada.

Client funds safe at PFGBest's Canada unit - regulator | Reuters

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 olobay 
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aligator View Post
So, who are these players in Canada?

I have only found a few. There is IntereactiveBrokers Canada, RJ OBrien Canada and Union Securities. That's why I started a thread for Canadian futures brokers. IB Canada offers 50% intraday margins instead of 100% like RJOB Canada. Not sure about Union.

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 aligator 
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R.J.O'Brien & Associates Canada Inc - Home



And Canada day was just 10 days ago I feel more patriotic than ever.

You guys are so polite, nice, have oil, have health care, have insured segregated accounts, have no wars, clean weather, no hurricanes, no heatwave, cozy winters in the bed, rank higher in math and science, and most important have a Queen, and all the you want. . Makes me green, are you guys from this planet?

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 TrendTraderBH 
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Canada's futures Industry and regulator - impressive!

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 liquidcci 
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TrendTraderBH View Post
Canada's futures Industry and regulator - impressive!

I guess if you like ridiculously high margins. $6210 on CL is kind of pitiful. I would much rather stay in US get better commissions and margins. Then spread risk between brokers and only keep in account what is needed.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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