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PFGBest Accounts Frozen (PFG scandal big thread)


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PFGBest Accounts Frozen (PFG scandal big thread)

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  #101 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
Early warning signs....

Speaking of...

Source: PFGBest missing $220 million customer segregated funds, says NFA


Futures Magazine
One PFG customer we spoke with said that he saw a potential red flag back in June when a check from the firm did not clear. PFG indicated that it was simply a technical glitch and the check cleared a day later.

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  #102 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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shanmugs View Post
Moved my account 3 months ago to Mirus/Dorman after futures.io (formerly BMT) best of trading 2012 results. Phew! dodged a bullet there!

Thank you Big Mike!!


You were one of the lucky ones!


Hopefully people reading this thread now realize that records can be faked, financial reports can be misleading, etc. I think there are a couple of lessons here (at least that I have followed since MFG):

1. Have multiple accounts through different clearing firms.

2. Put as little as possible in each acct - tell yourself you'll be OK if any one account suddenly vaporizes.

3. You could also wire money in and out every day/week/month, to not leave extra idle funds sitting around in a futures brokerage.


The net effect of doing this will still leave you open to an industry collapse, which I guess could happen. It also will effectively deleverage you (not necessarily a bad thing), since you won't be using margin optimally.


I'm guessing this debacle will lead to SIPC style insurance for futures accounts. A year ago I would have thought that idea was crazy. But after MFG and now PFG, it makes total sense.

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  #103 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
Look what's still working....


The sad thing is, I bet there are plenty of people still funding yesterday, today, tomorrow that haven't heard the news.

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  #104 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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Look what's still working....



ThatMan -

Can you open an acct, and please wire in $200 million? Problem solved!


If you don't have it, just give Russ Wasendorf Sr. a call at the hospital. He can give you tips on how to pretend you have it.

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  #105 (permalink)
 furytrader 
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I believe the NFA has stipulated that PFG cannot open new accounts.

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  #106 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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kevinkdog View Post
I'm guessing this debacle will lead to SIPC style insurance for futures accounts. A year ago I would have thought that idea was crazy. But after MFG and now PFG, it makes total sense.

It might. But PFG is not going to garner the attention of Congress in the way that Corzine/MFG did.

I will be interested to hear what the CME says.

The real issue for me is "who's next". Because you know it will be someone.

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  #107 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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furytrader View Post
I believe the NFA has stipulated that PFG cannot open new accounts.

Agreed, but I bet it still causes much grief to get your money back, unless somehow the wire transfers are being returned automatically (receiving account closed?)

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  #108 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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aligator View Post
Sell CME calls !!!!!

CME up over 2% pre-market.

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  #109 (permalink)
 Skidboot 
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Phew!

------------------

From: Nicholas Wittenburg
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 3:21 PM
To: xxx
Subject: PFGBEST Account

Dear xxx



Thank you for your relationship with PFGBEST. I was hoping to follow up with you in regards to your old account with us. I wanted to see how everything was going and to see if you were still trading futures. If you are I was hoping that you would consider coming back to PFGBEST. If you could please let me know.



Best regards,



Nick Wittenburg





Nick Wittenburg

Senior Customer Relations Representative

One Peregrine Way

Cedar Falls, IA 50613
1-800-361-6855

01-319-277-5240 Int'l

319.277.0880 Fax

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  #110 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Just did a search on futures.io (formerly BMT)'s user database.

Well over 100 futures.io (formerly BMT) users have declared PFG as their broker. And this is a rarely used field (non-required field), so the actual number is going to be many, many times higher.

Sorry for these people...

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  #111 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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Phew!

------------------

From: Nicholas Wittenburg
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 3:21 PM
To: xxx
Subject: PFGBEST Account

Dear xxx



Thank you for your relationship with PFGBEST. I was hoping to follow up with you in regards to your old account with us. I wanted to see how everything was going and to see if you were still trading futures. If you are I was hoping that you would consider coming back to PFGBEST. If you could please let me know.



Best regards,



Nick Wittenburg





Nick Wittenburg

Senior Customer Relations Representative

One Peregrine Way

Cedar Falls, IA 50613
1-800-361-6855

01-319-277-5240 Int'l

319.277.0880 Fax


I feel bad from Nick at PFG, and the other good honest people there. Nick is a really nice and helpful guy, and doesn't deserve this.

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  #112 (permalink)
 furytrader 
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Even if you didn't trade through PFG, this is bad - at a minimum, this means less players (and cash) in the market, which is worse for everybody ...

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  #113 (permalink)
 Skidboot 
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I feel bad from Nick at PFG, and the other good honest people there. Nick is a really nice and helpful guy, and doesn't deserve this.

I agree. Nick had been very nice to work with. I left purely because of data (slow) and execution.

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  #114 (permalink)
 tastypaint 
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I taught that I was being smart and sim trading so I would not go bust when I went live. I had set aside my start up capital in a PFG account. So much for that plan.

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  #115 (permalink)
 djkiwi 
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Guys, this just confirms my suspicion of the futures industry being the wild wild west.

Bear in mind MF Global collapsed on the 31st October 2011. The question is what have the regulators been doing since then? They have done nothing to improve basic auditing processes to check client funds are appropriately segregated. They should have moved immediately to address this area. It is not difficult to organize controls with the banks. There are not many brokers to monitor. The regulators have been negligent and should reimburse all losses. Of course they won't. The other issue is most regulators are old time industry insiders and appear more interested in protecting the firms as opposed to client funds.

SIPC

As someone pointed out this only covers equities accounts up to $500k and $250k in cash and not futures or commodities. The problem is the total SIPC fund is only $1 billion so it doesn't take much to wipe it out. If you trade equities and futures then IB or TD Ameritrade are good choices although TD fills suck. Both have additional insurance which insures the cash to $900k, up from $250k SIPC. I have most of my funds at these two entities for this reason. 80% of my trading is equities swing trading. Both can be traded through a ninjatrader multi-broker license.

The caveat is if you only trade futures and they go under you will probably be out of luck as the cash would be deemed futures related cash and not covered by the SIPC. The other issue with IB is it appears they may also be commingling cash.

The cycling of cash to different brokers does not help as you could be playing Russian Roulette. You could be cycling at the wrong time just as the new one goes under.

Cheers
DJ

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  #116 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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tastypaint View Post
I taught that I was being smart and sim trading so I would not go bust when I went live. I had set aside my start up capital in a PFG account. So much for that plan.

Ugh, sorry. How long ago did you fund? Have you tried to contact PFG directly or submit your wire-out request?

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  #117 (permalink)
 Warren 
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Punishment for breaking laws needs an overhaul here in the US.

There really is no discouraging factor to ward of a potential crooks.

You think Corzine was worrying about the punishment if his plan failed?

Not likely, he knew his reputation and status would take a hit, but he would still
have his connections to political power streams.


Where is it that a theft gets his hand cut off for stealing? Iran?

Do you see many hand-less people in Iran?

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  #118 (permalink)
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kevinkdog View Post
1. Have multiple accounts through different clearing firms.

2. Put as little as possible in each acct - tell yourself you'll be OK if any one account suddenly vaporizes.

3. You could also wire money in and out every day/week/month, to not leave extra idle funds sitting around in a futures brokerage.

I'm not sure how much this would help - aren't you increasing your risks in practice by spreading over a lot of brokerage firms? If you use this strategy, inadvertently you have to deposit money with smaller, privately held brokers (since there aren't that many brokers that work with each trading platform and cover the markets the trader is interested in).


Big Mike View Post
But that wasn't my point, I was more upset about reading how NFA placed a phone call to the bank to learn the true account balance, apparently they had forgot that step before when verifying the balances. If they have the purview to get the bank balance today, why did they not have it yesterday?

This is a real issue, since, as you already said in another posts, it begs the question which broker is next? In other words, what if the NFA decides that verifying the data is a worthwhile undertaking and starts calling more broker's banks? Apparently, the American regulators didn't make it very hard for PFGBest and MF Global to defraud their customers - so which other brokers took advantage of the opportunity to be "creative"?

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  #119 (permalink)
 flyg 
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PFG and others are scrambling to earn money on accounts..In the past they used to earn it in the safe haven of interest on Treasuries and the like...What Ben Bernanke has done is push a lot of these companies into taking uncustomary risk in search for returns...See what you have done Ben?

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  #120 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Jura View Post
This is a real issue, since, as you already said in another posts, it begs the question which broker is next? In other words, what if the NFA decides that verifying the data is a worthwhile undertaking and starts calling more broker's banks? Apparently, the American regulators didn't make it very hard for PFGBest and MF Global to defraud their customers - so which other brokers took advantage of the opportunity to be "creative"?

How about placing another 100 phone calls for starters, and verify the bank balances match closely the most recent "audited" report. I mean, how is it possible that didn't need to actually prove the money was there?

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  #121 (permalink)
 Midas 
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Why not have the bank balanced matched to the Brokers statements via a computer that then flags inconsistencies, In this day and age this is a "no brainer" Are these regulators still wearing green visors working on big black ledgers?

Midas

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  #122 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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Jura View Post
I'm not sure how much this would help - aren't you increasing your risks in practice by spreading over a lot of brokerage firms? If you use this strategy, inadvertently you have to deposit money with smaller, privately held brokers (since there aren't that many brokers that work with each trading platform and cover the markets the trader is interested in).


Good point, Jura. If you used this approach, you would have to be careful to make sure that the different brokers were clearing firms themselves, or were associated with different clearing firms. Some of the small IBs have the same clearing firm, so that doesn't buy you extra protection. The big firms cover all the markets, so access to markets you need should not be a problem. And yes, you might have multiple platforms. I use Tradestation, Ninja Trader and CTS as platforms.

It is definitely easier to have all your accounts at one broker. But for me, having 3 brokers (now 2, I guess) saved my livelihood. At least for a little while...

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  #123 (permalink)
 wavey 
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my thoughts go to all affected traders, hopefully the backup account is ready to battle through those tough times. If one reads through this list closely, you come to realize there was at least a foreshadow building up...

First MFG(lobal), Now PFG: Who Is Next? | ZeroHedge

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  #124 (permalink)
karoshiman
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.. I don't have an account with PFG, but feel sorry for all who have and I'm worried about the industry overall.

If regulators don't take serious action now (should have done last year already), the retail futures industry will go down the drain. Third-party auditors - which are not chosen and paid by the brokerage firms! - with monthly auditing would be the best way to go IMO. Even if it makes trading for all of us more expensive (e.g. through a fixed monthly fee all brokers to cover for the auditing costs of the industry, which they would surely pass to us clients).

The mentioned solution to pull money out of the account on a regular basis and only leave the minimum margin in makes only sense if you have already reached a "comfortable" account level. Otherwise compounding is not possible ... and I guess that's why most of us are in this business...

I have an account at TradeStation. They say they have excess SIPC insurance policy in place for futures and forex accounts with coverage up to $300m. However, I still do not feel secure given this recent news in such short period of time as I do not know whether the insurance will really work in case of fraud...

As far as I understand, the large investment banks don't provide brokerage services to small retail clients, right? Although fraud would be possible at such firms as well, I would FEEL more secure with my money at such big institutions (Goldman, Merrill, etc.)...

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  #125 (permalink)
 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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karoshiman View Post
I have an account at TradeStation. They say they have excess SIPC insurance policy in place for futures and forex accounts with coverage up to $300m.


I have Tradestation account too. SIPC insurance does NOT protect futures and forex accounts. Only stock accounts. So, you are not as protected as you think.


edit: Karoshiman is referring to "extra SIPC insurance" that Tradestation has. Karoshiman's stmt is correct. I was referring to "SIPC insurance" only. There is a difference.

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  #126 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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wavey View Post
my thoughts go to all affected traders, hopefully the backup account is ready to battle through those tough times. If one reads through this list closely, you come to realize there was at least a foreshadow building up...

First MFG(lobal), Now PFG: Who Is Next? | ZeroHedge

Expanding:


ZeroHedge
It seems the murky world of segregated accounts and FCMs is coming under the right amount of scrutiny once again. Atlas Ratings - who provide detailed ratings analysis on the entire spectrum of FCMs - had identified PFG Best in the bottom 5% of all FCMs (but with 4 other firms ranking lower on their proprietary rating scale - see below). As they note, almost across the board, PFG Best lagged dramatically in most categories. The only category where they did not have low marks was in regard to exchange penalties. The commodity exchanges had not penalized PFG very often for their clearing procedures or floor record-keeping, that much was done adequately within the company. Everything else we monitor showed weakness within the company:

Their net capital ratio and the trend of that ratio was extremely weak.
Their business is not diversified, they rely on minimal interest revenue, commissions and any proprietary trading.
Customer assets growth has been weak, healthy companies attract and retain new accounts.
PFG Best has had many CFTC & NFA penalties, these are major red flags. They failed to ID a massive ponzi scheme.
The big question - obviously - is who is next? The following table provides some clear indications of where the stress may just explode next.











It would seem account holders at Pioneer Futures, Rosenthal Collins Group, Crossland, Forex Capital Markets, and Velocity Futures should be checking in on those funds?

See also:

https://www.atlasratings.com/2012/07/10/what-went-wrong-at-pfg-best/

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  #127 (permalink)
 jungian 
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This is incredibly alarming and one has to ask yourself some tough questions.

I have an account at Mirus clearing w/ Dorman. I chose Mirus because I heard great things from this forum and another trading room.

As a Canadian customer, I feel more worried than ever. Funny though that the funds I wired were to BMO Harris Bank, BMO being the Bank of Montreal.

I wish a Canadian bank would take care of these funds. We SUPPOSEDLY have better regulations.

We can find the Higgs Boson, but we can't segregate funds....

Truly a travesty.


Jungian.

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  #128 (permalink)
 jungian 
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In Mikes post above...

Look who is two rungs below Peregrine..

YIKES!!!!

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  #129 (permalink)
karoshiman
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kevinkdog View Post
I have Tradestation account too. SIPC insurance does NOT protect futures and forex accounts. Only stock accounts. So, you are not as protected as you think.


I did not refer to the SIPC insurance, but the EXCESS SIPC insurance, which is an additional insurance policy. I asked about this also in the tradestation community and a TS rep confirmed it.

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  #130 (permalink)
 brevco 
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I never received an email from them either. I called this morning and they said it was sent about 3:00 yesterday. If it weren't for futures.io (formerly BMT), I would not have known!!

THANK YOU Big Mike for keeping me informed!

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 Big Mike 
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brevco View Post
I never received an email from them either. I called this morning and they said it was sent about 3:00 yesterday. If it weren't for futures.io (formerly BMT), I would not have known!!

THANK YOU Big Mike for keeping me informed!

Did they say anything about honoring withdraw requests? Did you try to place a wire out?

Mike

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 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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karoshiman View Post
I did not refer to the SIPC insurance, but the EXCESS SIPC insurance, which is an additional insurance policy. I asked about this also in the tradestation community and a TS rep confirmed it.

Thanks for the clarification. I remember reading your post over there. It sounds like that additional policy is through Lloyd's of London. That is why I am confused - it is not the gov't (SIPC) backing your futures account, but rather a third party insurer.

Thanks again for pointing this out.

Let us hope we never have to find out how good this extra protection is!

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 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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Big Mike View Post
Did they say anything about honoring withdraw requests? Did you try to place a wire out?

Mike


Mike -

All funds are frozen.

From yesterday's e-mail: "Until further notice, PFGBEST is not authorized to release any funds."

And, as of this morning, they are closing all open positions.

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  #134 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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kevinkdog View Post
Mike -

All funds are frozen.

From yesterday's e-mail: "Until further notice, PFGBEST is not authorized to release any funds."

And, as of this morning, they are closing all open positions.

Yes sorry, I meant whether they said anything about a timetable.

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 Big Mike 
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Source: Jefferies Begins Liquidation Of PFG Positions, Will Keep Proceeds In Segregated Accounts | ZeroHedge


Quoting 
The MF Global playbook is playing out step by step:

JEFFERIES HAS BEGAN AN ORDERLY LIQUIDATION OF PFG’S POSITIONS
JEFFERIES DOESN'T EXPECT TO INCUR ANY LOSS IN RESPECT OF PFG
JEFFERIES ALREADY LIQUIDATED SUBSTANTIAL PORTION OF POSITIONS
JEFFERIES SAYS PFG POSITIONS SECURED BY CASH HELD IN MARGIN ACC
JEFERIES TO KEEP PFG LIQUIDATION PROCEEDS IN SEGREGATED ACCOUNTS

And the full statement:

In response to inquiries, Jefferies today confirmed that it has a clearing relationship with Peregrine Financial Group ("PFG") with trading positions held on behalf of PFG's clients fully secured by cash held in margin accounts. After PFG was unable to meet a margin call that Jefferies made in response to yesterday's National Future Association's Member Responsibility Action, Jefferies began an orderly liquidation of PFG's positions.

Jefferies has already liquidated a substantial portion of those positions and expects to be able to expeditiously liquidate the remainder in a fair and reasonable manner, after which all proceeds of the liquidation will be maintained in segregated accounts. Jefferies does not expect to incur any loss in respect of PFG.

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 Midas 
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Big Mike View Post
Did they say anything about honoring withdraw requests? Did you try to place a wire out?

Mike

Monday, July 9, 2012

Due to a recent emergency involving Russell R. Wasendorf, Sr., a suicide attempt, some accounting irregularities are being investigated regarding company accounts. PFGBEST is wholly owned by Mr. Wasendorf. Therefore, the NFA and other officials have put all funds on hold, and PFGBEST is in liquidation-only status with our clearing FCM. What this means is no customers are able to trade except to liquidate positions. Until further notice, PFGBEST is not authorized to release any funds. We will update you as any new procedures are stipulated and with any further information as it becomes available.

Note: They can't release funds.

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 jungian 
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For Canadian traders,

Anyone know what Interactive Brokers ranking is? I didn't see it on the list. Who do they clear with?

Interactive Brokers Canada, from their financial statment

Interactive Brokers Canada inc, was incorporated under the Canada Business Corporation Act in the City of Toronto, Ontario on December 14, 2000 and is wholly-owned by Interactive Brokers Group LLC. The Company began its operations in June 2002 and carries customer accounts of Canada residents for execution and clearing of securities and commodities transactions. These transactions are cleared through its affiliate in the U.S.A., Interactive Brokers LLC.

Is anyone immune? Is IB Safe?

Jungian

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 Big Mike 
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Source: How Rule 1.25 Impacts Professional Investors: Where did MF Global Money Go?


Wasendorf in an interview about MF Global
Every single day [a futures commission merchant] must file a segregated report. On Friday, prior to the (MF Global bankruptcy) everything was fine, on Monday the bells went off,' according to Russ Wasendorf, Sr., founder of FCM PFGBest.

Speaking on PBS Nightly Business report, Wasendorf, a former NFA board member, offered one potential opinion on the case of the disappearing $600 million: 'Something happened in the middle of that time. Futures regulations work just fine. Once the money was transferred it went into a new regulatory environment, probably covered by banking rules, which supersede the regulations of the futures industry.

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 djkiwi 
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karoshiman View Post
I did not refer to the SIPC insurance, but the EXCESS SIPC insurance, which is an additional insurance policy. I asked about this also in the tradestation community and a TS rep confirmed it.

Hi, this is not true. It only covers stocks. I looked into this awhile ago as well when looking at tradestation as a potential broker. Never take reps assurances on the phone, always get it in writing.

https://www.tradestation.com:443/site-wide-items/disclaimers/legal/disclosures/account-security

You have ZERO coverage with Tradestation if you only trade futures unless they sweep the cash into an insured sweep account. If you trade stocks AND futures at trade station you will probably be ok if the cash is swept to the insured equities sweep account. If you only trade futures it is possibly swept to an uninsured account. You should contact trade station and get it in writing.

At least Tradestation is high up on the list Mike posted.

Cheers
DJ

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 Big Mike 
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jungian View Post
Anyone know what Interactive Brokers ranking is? I didn't see it on the list. Who do they clear with?

They are on that list, ranked "70". IB is a clearing FCM.

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 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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djkiwi View Post
Hi, this is not true. It only covers stocks. I looked into this awhile ago as well when looking at tradestation as a potential broker. Never take reps assurances on the phone, always get it in writing.

https://www.tradestation.com:443/site-wide-items/disclaimers/legal/disclosures/account-security

You have ZERO coverage with Tradestation if you only trade futures unless they sweep the cash into an insured sweep account. If you trade stocks AND futures at trade station you will probably be ok if the cash is swept to the insured equities sweep account. If you only trade futures it is possibly swept to an uninsured account. You should contact trade station and get it in writing.

At least Tradestation is high up on the list Mike posted.

Cheers
DJ


He actually did get it in writing from a TS rep on 6/5/2012. Here is what the rep said (bolding is mine):

karoshiman,

SIPC protection applies only to equities accounts. Futures and forex accounts would be covered by the excess SIPC insurance policy described above. We have not made any changes to our policies regarding customer funds since being acquired by Monex. If you have further questions regarding these issues, please send an email to ClientService@tradestation.com.

Thank you,

Greg
TradeStation Technical Support



I am asking TS the same question, just to confirm.

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  #142 (permalink)
 Skidboot 
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Local news - Cedar Falls, IA - Video

Cedar Falls futures broker PFGBest under investigation - KWWL.com - News & Weather for Waterloo, Dubuque, Cedar Rapids & Iowa City, Iowa |

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 Treggs 
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Crap.. I have an account with Mirus and RCG. I haven't had any problems but should I be emptying my account? I only keep minimal amounts in my account to cover my trading but that ain't a pretty list. Any other lists to compare data with?

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 Haverchuck 
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jungian View Post
In Mikes post above...

Look who is two rungs below Peregrine..

YIKES!!!!

I think one of the main reasons RCG is ranking so low on that list is because their "CFTC/NFA Disciplinary Action" score is so high. They were fined a few months ago for not realizing that someone had opened an account that was used for fraudulent purposes.

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 Big Mike 
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Source: PFG's quarterly profitability numbers are actually up - a moment of sarcasm | Forex Magnates


Forex Magnates
Although PFG was put in liquidation-only mode by the NFA which then reported that its “highly effective” brokers supervision mechanism failed to notice that over $200 million in client funds went missing for more than 2 years, its quarterly forex profitability numbers actually improved in Q2 2012..

Q1 2012 PFG’s profitable and non-profitable figures were 28% and 72% respectively. This quarter PFG even managed to update the stats before being raided and the profitable figure shows 32.86%. Of course this is a calculation mistake and the actual figures for profitable and non-profitable are 0% and 100% respectively…

Apparently PFG BEST already knew about its problems otherwise you cannot explain this PFGBEST SpongeBob Coin Set promotion which tells you what kind of coins PFG BEST’s clients may expect to get back.. Someone at PFG definitely has a sense of humor.



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 Skidboot 
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OMG! just finished watching the 5 min video.

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  #147 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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I won't put too much stock in those "Atlas" ratings personally. Several things in that report make no sense to me, and go directly against what I know about some of these companies.

But don't take that as advice... everyone needs to have their own relationship with their broker, and be comfortable with them, and of course in light of recent events - just be "smart" (ie: maintain minimum balances to cover margin).

Mike

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  #148 (permalink)
 Treggs 
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I'm no expert on these numbers but RCG doesn't look too bad based on these numbers?

https://www.cftc.gov/ucm/groups/public/financialdataforfcms/documents/file/fcmdata0412.pdf

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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 mongoose 
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Peter Brandt was just on bloomberg and said he was a pfg customer, he had some really nice things to say about the cftc

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 madLyfe 
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jungian View Post
In Mikes post above...

Look who is two rungs below Peregrine..

YIKES!!!!

look who is 2 up...

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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  #151 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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Source: Despite missing finds, PFG?s Canadian clients expected to be safe - The Globe and Mail


Quoting 
Canadians who have money in trading accounts with PFG Canada, the Canadian arm of brokerage Peregrine Financial Group where $200-million has gone missing, are expected to get their money back.

Although nothing can be said for sure because negotiations are still under way and an investigation into the firm is just starting, a senior employee in the Canadian operation said “there’s a 95-per-cent-plus probability that Canadian clients will remain whole” – industry slang for getting their money back. The employee requested anonymity because final details are still being hashed out.

“Things are well in hand for Canadian clients,” the source said. “There’s been [a] conversation between the Canadian firm and IIROC since yesterday afternoon.” IIROC, or the Investment Industry Regulatory Association of Canada, is the lead regulator looking into the matter.

IIROC has yet to formally comment on the talks, but that it is likely Canadian client funds will be transferred to another brokerage, and negotiations for that are under way. The same actions were taken after money went missing at brokerage MF Global last year, after which the firm’s Canadian funds were transferred to Royal Bank of Canada.

However, the decisions have been made much more quickly this time around. With the MF Global fiasco, clients were in limbo for two weeks as they waited to figure out where their money is going.

Much like the MF Global scenario, client funds held by PFG Canada are also covered by the Canadian Investor Protection Fund, which could put them at an advantage over U.S. clients. The U.S. equivalent to the CIPF, the Securities Investor Protection Corp. doesn’t cover futures accounts, while CIPF covers all investment accounts, from stock to futures to currencies.

CIPF was apprised of the situation late Monday afternoon but does not believe it will be called upon to cover any losses, said vice-president Barbara Love.

She confirmed that PGF’s Canadian operation is a member of the fund, and customers would be eligible for coverage, but “at this point we don’t anticipate being asked,” said Ms. Love, who confirmed that customer accounts are likely to be “transferred in full to another firm.”

The call came in at 5 p.m. (ET) on Monday about the developing situation and “we really just got updated on everything that was going on in Canada this morning,” she said.

Regulators are working “very quickly. There’s a lot more knowledge in Canada about the futures industry after MF Global.”

The National Futures Association (NFA) in the U.S., an industry group that also plays a regulatory role, said yesterday it had issued an emergency order to effectively freeze U.S. futures broker PFGBest’s operations after finding that a U.S. bank account the broker said contained $225-million in customer funds actually held only $5-million.

PFGBest told customers their funds had been frozen and clients would be allowed to liquidate open trading positions, but would not be able to withdraw funds or make new trades until further notice.

There is no word yet on how much Canadian money is held by PFG Canada, however, Ms. Love said that PGF’s operations in Canada are not as large as MF’s. “It’s a much smaller firm, [with] fewer clients.” When MF Global’s Canadian funds were frozen, about $400-million of invested money was affected.

A public statement from PFG Canada is expected later this afternoon.

Mike

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  #152 (permalink)
 brevco 
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That is exactly what I was thinking! Only keep the minimum in there to trade and make frequent withdrawals to keep the balance at the bare minimum.....or at least only what you can afford to lose in the event this happens with another broker. Better to be safe than sorry.



wldman View Post
I had some money set to go back to my broker. Now I'll go the other way pulling money right down to the minimum needed to trade.

What is next?


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 Big Mike 
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Source: CFTC Finally Gets The Memo: Regulator Sues PFG, Says Firm Has $200 Million Customer Fund Shortfall | ZeroHedge


Quoting 
MF Global 2 is now official. At least one can never accuse ex-Goldmanite, and current head of the CFTC Gary Gensler, as being behind the curve:

U.S. COMMODITIES REGULATOR SUES PEREGRINE FINANCIAL GROUP
FIRM HAS $200 MILLION CUSTOMER FUND `SHORTFALL', CFTC SAYS
CFTC LAWSUIT FILED ONE DAY AFTER FIRM ANNOUNCES NFA PROBE


Hopefully, the CFTC's now meaningless action will help all those farmers whose money has just vaporized. Luckily, they can make it all up on record corn profits.

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  #154 (permalink)
 brevco 
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I received no email and when I called them they said it was sent out at 3:00 yesterday. A friend of mine who also has an account with them called PFG and he said he was told to basically kiss his account good bye. I can't imagine their customer service rep would even say something like that but my friend wouldn't make up something like that.

I chatted with Gail Mercer at Traders Help Desk. She recommended AMP Futures, so I might contact them today.



Devil Man View Post
I got this from PFG earlier today:

Monday, July 9, 2012

Due to a recent emergency involving Russell R. Wasendorf, Sr., a suicide attempt, some accounting irregularities are being investigated regarding company accounts. PFGBEST is wholly owned by Mr. Wasendorf. Therefore, the NFA and other officials have put all funds on hold, and PFGBEST is in liquidation-only status with our clearing FCM. What this means is no customers are able to trade except to liquidate positions. Until further notice, PFGBEST is not authorized to release any funds. We will update you as any new procedures are stipulated and with any further information as it becomes available.


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  #155 (permalink)
 djkiwi 
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kevinkdog View Post
He actually did get it in writing from a TS rep on 6/5/2012. Here is what the rep said (bolding is mine):

karoshiman,

SIPC protection applies only to equities accounts. Futures and forex accounts would be covered by the excess SIPC insurance policy described above. We have not made any changes to our policies regarding customer funds since being acquired by Monex. If you have further questions regarding these issues, please send an email to ClientService@tradestation.com.

Thank you,

Greg
TradeStation Technical Support


I am asking TS the same question, just to confirm.

Hi, good idea. I would take this answer at face value though. In any case the ultimate decision to honor a claim is nothing to do with tradestation but the insurer who will have to prioritize customer accounts in the event of a shortfall.

It is semi-clear on the website that the intent of the excess coverage only applies to equities accounts:

"London provides coverage for loss of securities and/or cash in excess of primary SIPC protection, up to $300 million in the aggregate". SIPC does not apply in any manner to FCMs, RFEDs or FDMs or to futures or forex accounts.

Both IB and TD Ameritrade provide exactly the same additional coverage. How they treat the sweep is the key.

IB allows you to elect whether to sweep excess funds into the IB securities account (SIPC covered) or the commodities account (I'm assuming no coverage but will find out for sure). By default it is swept to the securities account. Tradestation may have the same policy so it is worth finding out.

In any case even if it is swept to the securities account, if you only trade futures and no equities the equities customers would likely be first in line as that is the primary intent of the insurance. Next would be equities/futures and third the futures guys. The equities customers would likely suck up the entire $300 million in insurance though.

Cheers
DJ

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  #156 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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Good job CFTC sue company that has no money because your regulators failed to see a $195 million short fall in accounts. Maybe CFTC needs to be sued.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #157 (permalink)
 aligator 
Las Vegas, NV
 
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@Big Mike,

So let's forget about it, its water under the bridge, this is my third brokers' bust in 34 years of trading. I have yet to get a penny back. The next one is social Security going bust.

If you still have funds and enough motivation to continue trading you need to think forward.

So here is my suggestion: Start a poll to see which brokers your 30,000 members are using or recommending, so that we can all deposit our nest egg into another segregated future account. (I have the list of winning brokers from TASC, but we know that that is not worth a bean).

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  #158 (permalink)
karoshiman
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djkiwi View Post
Hi, this is not true. It only covers stocks. I looked into this awhile ago as well when looking at tradestation as a potential broker. Never take reps assurances on the phone, always get it in writing.

You have ZERO coverage with Tradestation if you only trade futures unless they sweep the cash into an insured sweep account. If you trade stocks AND futures at trade station you will probably be ok if the cash is swept to the insured equities sweep account. If you only trade futures it is possibly swept to an uninsured account. You should contact trade station and get it in writing.

At least Tradestation is high up on the list Mike posted.

Cheers
DJ


No, read the security statement carefully. It's a third party insurance with Loyds of London. And I've got it in writing... as I said, it's in the TS community. You can look it up there by searching for my user name, which is the same in the TS community as over here.

Yeah, I am glad I saw TS relatively high up in that Atlas Rating list

EDIT: Sorry, did not see the later posts by Kevin and you.

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  #159 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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Dang... Canadians get good health care and now their futures accounts are insured... but they stopped issuing or renewing work visas for foreign strippers... so I guess it evens out....

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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 liquidcci 
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aligator View Post
@Big Mike,

So let's forget about it, its water under the bridge, this is my third brokers' bust in 34 years of trading. I have yet to get a penny back. The next one is social Security going bust.

If you still have funds and enough motivation to continue trading you need to think forward.

So here is my suggestion: Start a poll to see which brokers your 30,000 members are using or recommending, so that we can all deposit our nest egg into another segregated future account. (I have the list of winning brokers from TASC, but we know that that is not worth a bean).

The problem is we can all recommend brokers but have no reference point to know if any are truly safe. The regulators seem to never know there is a problem until it is to late. Until segregated account means segregated account that can't be tapped unless an outside third party gives permission in some fashion none of us are safe. We can look at all kinds of ratings and try and see how much capital a firm has but none of it really matters. When the falsify account balances we have no way to know anything the way the system is currently operating. Even if the account balances are not falsified it seems to be as easy for company insiders to steal $400 million as it is to steal $5. So one day there is $400 mil in account next day it is $0. Industry better wake up and police itself or there will not be an industry.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #161 (permalink)
 cory 
the coin hunter
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who are PFG customers?

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 Tarkus11 
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cory View Post
who are PFG customers?

I see now that the CCI trading room is a paid subscription ($99/mo). I'm pretty sure it used to be free.

Hope they can at least get some money back - CME produced some funds in the MFG case.

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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liquidcci View Post
The problem is we can all recommend brokers but have no reference point to know if any are truly safe.

We could go back to buy and hold equities... they're insured ... but then again when Wall Street can create a flash crash when it suits them... you would be better off hoping your broker stole your money ... at least then it would be insured ...

Let's face it... trading futures is NOT for the faint of heart... never has been... never will be... if we wanted safety and security ... we would be bragging about getting 1.5% APR on our jumbo CD's ...

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #164 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
We could go back to buy and hold equities... they're insured ... but then again when Wall Street can create a flash crash when it suits them... you would be better off hoping your broker stole your money ... at least then it would be insured ...

Let's face it... trading futures is NOT for the faint of heart... never has been... never will be... if we wanted safety and security ... we would be bragging about getting 1.5% APR on our jumbo CD's ...

@ThatManFromTexas futures trading not for faint of heart that is for sure. But "customer segregated" has always been what we thought was a backstop. Really should not need SIPC or any other insurance because our money should be our money walled off from the rest of the company. If firm went down from risky trading we would get our money back. Instead firm takes on risk then when they need money they simply dip into our accounts.

Many risks in trading futures but this should not be one of them.. I take risks everyday but they are my risks. But a firm risking my money when it is supposed to be segregated is unacceptable. What is really sickening is to read that letter PFG sent to customers after MF Global insuring PFG accounts were safe. I know you probably agree with this so I am preaching to choir. Not much we can do if going to trade futures. Ridiculous risk but it is what it is for the moment. Not holding my breath but lets hope the industry cleans up or at least puts some safeguards in place that really protect our accounts.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 futuretrader 
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liquidcci View Post
Not much we can do if going to trade futures. Ridiculous risk but it is what it is for the moment. Not holding my breath but lets hope the industry cleans up or at least puts some safeguards in place that really protect our accounts.

I doubt that hoping they do it without real pressure from their clients is going to work; it's too useful and profitable for them to be able to dip into customers' accounts.

What we need is a forum for retail traders to organize and start pestering and pressuring their brokerage firms to either insure or truly segregate customers' funds. If a few of them change and then attract clients because they are safer, the industry will begin to change.

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 ThatManFromTexas 
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liquidcci View Post
@ThatManFromTexas futures trading not for faint of heart that is for sure. But "customer segregated" has always been what we thought was a backstop. Really should not need SIPC or any other insurance because our money should be our money walled off from the rest of the company. If firm went down from risky trading we would get our money back. Instead firm takes on risk then when they need money they simply dip into our accounts.

Many risks in trading futures but this should not be one of them.. I take risks everyday but they are my risks. But a firm risking my money when it is supposed to be segregated is unacceptable. What is really sickening is to read that letter PFG sent to customers after MF Global insuring PFG accounts were safe. I know you probably agree with this so I am preaching to choir. Not much we can do if going to trade futures. Ridiculous risk but it is what it is for the moment. Not holding my breath but lets hope the industry cleans up or at least puts some safeguards in place that really protect our accounts.

@liquidcci

Back when gambling was prevalent in Galveston .... state troopers would raid a gambling den detain all of the "customers" ... turn over the tables and show them the electro magnets and switches on the bottom of the tables the dealers used to cheat the "customers" with ... at the next raid... the same customers were detained... a baffled trooper asked the customers why they kept coming back when they knew the games was rigged ... the customers would say... it's the only game in town...

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #167 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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ThatManFromTexas View Post
@liquidcci

Back when gambling was prevalent in Galveston .... state troopers would raid a gambling den detain all of the "customers" ... turn over the tables and show them the electro magnets and switches on the bottom of the tables the dealers used to cheat the "customers" with ... at the next raid... the same customers were detained... a baffled trooper asked the customers why they kept coming back when they knew the games was rigged ... the customers would say... it's the only game in town...

Dang @ThatManFromTexas unfortunately I agree.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 GridKing 
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Quoting 
WASHINGTON—Federal regulators sued Peregrine Financial Group Inc. and Chief Executive Russell Wasendorf Sr. on Tuesday alleging fraud, customer funds violations and making false statements.

The complaint from the Commodity Futures Trading Commission comes a day after the National Futures Association, the futures industry's self-regulatory body, said it had taken an emergency enforcement action against broker PFGBest's parent company, Peregrine Financial Group.

The CFTC and National Futures Association received information indicating that Mr. Wasendorf "may have falsified certain bank records" in the aftermath of a suicide attempt by Mr. Wasendorf on Monday, according to the complaint.

The complaint, which was filed in the U.S. District for the Northern District Court of Illinois, alleges that Peregrine told the National Futures Association in a July audit that it had $220 million in customer funds, when there was actually only $5.1 million.

The CFTC said there were shortfalls in customer accounts since at least February 2010 and seeks restitution and civil monetary penalties.

The CFTC is seeking an injunction and restraining order to halt the firm's business and preserve records.

Customers of the embattled futures and currency brokerage saw trades held with PFGBest liquidated Tuesday.

All open trading positions held by clients of PFGBest were to be liquidated by Jefferies Group Inc., JEF -1.11% which clears transactions for the struggling company, customers were told in a notice early Tuesday, a copy of which was reviewed by Dow Jones Newswires.

Jefferies later confirmed that it "liquidated a substantial portion of those positions and expects to be able to expeditiously liquidate the remainder in a fair and reasonable manner," adding "after which all proceeds of the liquidation will be maintained in segregated accounts."

Jefferies said it began an orderly liquidation after PFG was unable to meet a margin call that the investment bank made in response to an action by the National Futures Association.

Jefferies, which had trading positions held on behalf of PFG's clients secured by cash held in margin accounts, said it doesn't expect to incur "any loss in respect of PFG."

Shares of Jefferies moved lower following the company's confirmation of the clearing relationship with Peregrine Financial Group, falling 1% to $12.51.

PFGBest didn't immediately respond to a request for comment.

Late Monday, PFGBest's brokerage and retail customers had their accounts frozen as regulators began looking into the company's books. In June, the company reported to the Commodity Futures Trading Commission that it held approximately $400 million in customer assets.

CFTC Sues Peregrine Financial Group - WSJ.com

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  #169 (permalink)
 itrade2win 
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"It would seem account holders at Pioneer Futures, Rosenthal Collins Group, Crossland, Forex Capital Markets, and Velocity Futures should be checking in on those funds?"

Velocity Futures is my third broker. When I started trading 3 years ago I started with Dorman and moved to Trade Pro based on the advice of the course instructor saying he was moving to Trade Pro because there was a fund issue with Dorman and I read an article regarding that, but don't remember the particulars. I switched to Velocity for cheaper commissions and heard good things when I joined futures.io (formerly BMT) and now their at the bottom of the barrel.

And I was going to deposit more funds this month, actually been meaning to do it the last few weeks, but was not urgent. I have been spending the day doing some home work on where to park my money, seems like a crap shot now.

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 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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I know I am new here, and many of you do not know me, but I will be on Fox Business Channel's Closing Bell with Liz Claman" at 3 PM EDT today, to give perspective from a PFG account holder.

I figure if it helps people, even a little bit, get their money back, it is worth my time.

Kevin

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 raefon72 
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Reality Check on using a stop loss.

I guess its a good time to look at what "Substantial Risk of Loss"actually means. Sometimes we dont set out to defraud people or put a stop limit on life. Im sure Wasendorf started out in life as a hard working, loving husband and father.

It will be easy for me to get some funds together and start a new account, I'll be back in front in no time. But here is a man who has traded his life for money.

I guess in the end W.D.Gann (Always use a stop), enjoyed running down the beach naked chanting "Jehova" and Livermore (Never enough) took his own life.

It's a cold reality of the "Want for the love of money" versus "Living Life to the full
My thoughts
Raef".

I can't move faster than the markets.
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  #172 (permalink)
 tpbyyc 
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Big Mike View Post
I won't put too much stock in those "Atlas" ratings personally. Several things in that report make no sense to me ...
Mike

Thanks for linking to this .... Mike when you have a moment could you comment on what specifically in the report made no sense to you? Would you know anything more about "Atlas Ratings", themselves; is it a company, n-f-p style organization? Have you seen copies of this report in the past? The website provides very few details on what or who they are?

I did not see any date on this report and I guess we only have Zero Hedge's word that Atlas ratings did in fact have PFG ranked as low as they were prior to yesterday. It seems to me to be a very convenient & timely 'leak' for Atlas Ratings whoever they are .... interesting that these ratings have not leaked out on Zero hedge beforehand, especially after PFG was convicted & fined in its involvement with the currency ponzi scheme earlier in the year. A quick search of the Zero Hedge website did not find any mention of PFG's involvement in that "little" scandal.

For an individual investor the 12 month subscription fee is $348, not expensive but not cheap. I believe most, if not all of the information they use is publicly available through the CFTC's website and their monthly report of "Financial Data for FCMs" (the report looks to be published about 2 months after the fact, April 2012 being the most current report on the website ... thanks, for linking to this as well!)

As my broker is listed very low on this list it certainly gives pause for thought, but as I have been very happy with their service and fees I don't want to do anything rash.

In the end, when someone or some organization wants to commit the kind of fraud that has just occurred and in the absence of more regular audits or a more transparent verification program what is the use of any of this information, if only to set false expectations? We do live in interesting times,and I'll keep the faith in my own trading abilities, just wondering if I should be keeping the same faith in my current broker.

My best wishes for a speedy recovery for any of the futures.io (formerly BMT) community who have been effected by these events.

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  #173 (permalink)
 GridKing 
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raefon72 View Post
Reality Check on using a stop loss.

I guess its a good time to look at what "Substantial Risk of Loss"actually means. Sometimes we dont set out to defraud people or put a stop limit on life. Im sure Wasendorf started out in life as a hard working, loving husband and father.

It will be easy for me to get some funds together and start a new account, I'll be back in front in no time. But here is a man who has traded his life for money.

I guess in the end W.D.Gann (Always use a stop), enjoyed running down the beach naked chanting "Jehova" and Livermore (Never enough) took his own life.

It's a cold reality of the "Want for the love of money" versus "Living Life to the full
My thoughts
Raef".

I like what you said and all, but fact is a lot of these guys and families have been living high on the hog for a long time using other peoples money and when the money stops they feel entitled to continue living high on the hog instead of suffering with the rest of us , I have no compassion for him or his family, he's a thief and a liar and a coward , and there will be many more who are exposed over the coming months because the money isn't there anymore... watch your back


And not to go off topic but governments will be next on the list of exposure as well... we really are screwed

JMO



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  #174 (permalink)
 Private Banker 
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It would be interesting to see what the previous month's rankings were or even a gradual progression of the rankings. I have to wonder how they arrive with these figures as well. I would assume from the CFTC but maybe I over looked that. I think some companies can drop in rank because of a one off regulatory event that may not be as bad as it appears.

This ratings agency is brand new... Who are they? What are their qualifications, etc? I went to their website and was not able to find anything. Nor do they provide a clear ratings legend.

The futures industry is still in the wild west of the financial world. Some important things to remember here are:

- First and foremost, only keep enough money to conduct your day-to-day trading while having enough capital to assume the risk you're taking on.
- Be proactive about taking your profits out of your trading account on a normal basis. This isn't a savings account, you make no interest on idle cash. Once you have "enough" saved from your trades to cover whatever plus taxes, look to increase the account as you plan to increase size.
- Stay on top of your broker(s). Know where they hold their seg funds, what is their overall business structure, how do they rank among other brokers? Just because your broker appeared on this ratings list, what was the reason for their ranking?
- Do not put all your eggs in one basket. Have relationships with several brokers. If one of them were to be involved with a fiasco like this, have a plan B, C, etc. Again, these accounts should only be funded enough to allow you to conduct your daily business.

I think many are panicking that their brokers are going to be next. Just do your best to be informed of what's going on and follow what I've said here. Also, do not put all your eggs in one basket. Have relationships with several brokers.

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  #175 (permalink)
 bwolinsky 
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  #176 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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Call if you'd like to be represented in a class action against pfg if account holder

@bwolinsky

1. No offense but.... if they have no money... what good will a class action do?

2. If they do have money , won't that go to the investors anyway?

3. In a class action... seems like the lawyers make out like bandits and the class members get very little...

Just my opinion....

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #177 (permalink)
 brevco 
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I believe you're right. If they don't have any money then it might be a waste of time. If they sold all their assets, then maybe we would get something back, but that could take years.



ThatManFromTexas View Post
Call if you'd like to be represented in a class action against pfg if account holder

@bwolinsky

1. No offense but.... if they have no money... what good will a class action do?

2. If they do have money , won't that go to the investors anyway?

3. In a class action... seems like the lawyers make out like bandits and the class members get very little...

Just my opinion....


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  #178 (permalink)
 bwolinsky 
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They got good properties but maybe their just leases?

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  #179 (permalink)
 ThatManFromTexas 
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bwolinsky View Post
They got good properties but maybe their just leases?

@bwolinsky

Even if they "own" it... unless they paid cash .... the bank owns it ... and they are a secured creditor...

Even if there is something of value that can be liquidated ... in a class action lawsuit...not much will be left after the lawyers get their cut... no offense to any lawyers on the board... just speaking from personal experience...

I'm just a simple man trading a simple plan.

My daddy always said, "Every day above ground is a good day!"
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  #180 (permalink)
 tickvix 
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I have a stupid question. Does anyone know how current PFG issue effecting Forex account.
If anyone has any information please reply.

Thank you for your help.

Gregory

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  #181 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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Hey TMFT, right. TOS platform is separate from NT.

However, TDAmeritrade's feed works with NT currently. So in this case one could get both. I haven't been able to do it personally. Because my old TOS account (pre- TDA merger) doesn't work with NT. I called TOS tech support and they told me I had to start a new TDAmeritrade account in order to have it work with NT

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  #182 (permalink)
 brevco 
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I just spoke to one of Woodies moderators about an hour ago. Woodies chatroom is burning up with comments. Woodie hasn't come up with anything as far as recommending another broker. Woodies broker, PFG Neil (Neal?) used the ID of "PFG Neal" but today I was told it is just "Neal." When Woodie went to the paid version of his chatroom many of his followers dropped off...at $300 a pop ($200 to lease the Woodie Bars and $100 for the chatroom) that's when PFG stopped sponsoring the room but they were still the "favored" brokerage. I also heard that today Woodie was introducing a new "Woodie" bar called NADAX bars. ?? Wonder what that's all about. Maybe hybrid or JAM renkos. I haven't seen them.




aligator View Post
A victim of this whole PFG mess is certainly Woodie's CCI Room, the proud inventor and leaser of Woodie Bars, better known as Median Renko bars. The room was sponsored by PFG and the majority of the members that ever crossed path with Woodie's room had accounts with PFG, including all the cheer leading moderators that praised PFG non-stop. I can only guess that this room was responsible for signing up many hundreds of members with PFG (although maybe for a short time before they blew their accounts).

Will see if the room is attended by members tomorrow. The sad thing is many of the members donated to MAWF, which was a charity of choice for PFG, now I wonder about that too.

Poor guy, how many times can you go broke trading for 37 years and still survive. Got to give it to him.


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  #183 (permalink)
 brevco 
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TDAmeritrade/TOS offers futures and forex but the problem is that their margin requirements are much higher than most other brokerages and that means you have to carry a higher account balance.....more at risk if they have a problem.


ThatManFromTexas View Post
@Cloudy

I know... but I was looking at commonly mentioned firms on futures.io (formerly BMT) that included Ninja Trader or Sierra Charts in their platforms... since a large number of futures.io (formerly BMT) members use those platforms...


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  #184 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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brevco View Post
TDAmeritrade/TOS offers futures and forex but the problem is that their margin requirements are much higher than most other brokerages and that means you have to carry a higher account balance.....more at risk if they have a problem.

Plus their feed is not fast or robust enough to day trade futures. If taking long term positions works fine but not for intra day stuff.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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  #185 (permalink)
 Cloudy 
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brevco View Post
TDAmeritrade/TOS offers futures and forex but the problem is that their margin requirements are much higher than most other brokerages and that means you have to carry a higher account balance.....more at risk if they have a problem.

Yes, that's why I started with NT and Mirus since back then futures&forex on TOS pre-merger was lagging and their requirements and fees has always been higher. However, heard that it can be negotiated down for futures. Since the TDA merger and upgrades, currently TOS speed has been greatly improved on their DOM trading. I compared NT/Zenfire and TOS DOM and didn't find any difference in slippage now. Time and sales look exactly the same. Plus for forex, there is the option to use commission based trading instead of by spread. Don't know if it means anything anymore but possibly the higher requirements and fees could mean greater security and oversight at TDAmeritrade.

Maybe someone who's using TDAmeritrade with NT7 daytrading futures could comment..

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  #186 (permalink)
 mik900 
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First MFG(lobal), Now PFG: Who Is Next? | ZeroHedge

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  #187 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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kevinkdog View Post
I know I am new here, and many of you do not know me, but I will be on Fox Business Channel's Closing Bell with Liz Claman" at 3 PM EDT today, to give perspective from a PFG account holder.

I figure if it helps people, even a little bit, get their money back, it is worth my time.

Kevin

How did it go? I don't watch TV.

Mike

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  #188 (permalink)
 harvester 
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I'm coming a little late to this thread, but wanted to share what I know about the situation. The first thing I should mention is that I closed my PFG account last February and opened an IB account to trade futures on MultiCharts. It's looking like that was a timely move.

I had originally setup my account up with PFGBest as part of their relationship with NeuroShell. They had a free autotrading interface on an API that PFG provided. I ended up doing a whole lot of work to get this setup, and actually re-wrote their entire help file and documentation on using this setup. The API was very clunky, and over time I more or less gave up on it. NeuroShell can also autotrade on IB, but you have to pay $70 a month to some guy who wrote an interface to them. The only difference was it worked, and the PFG thing didn't.

So I had funds sitting there in PFG for quite a while doing nothing, until I pulled the trigger and moved it. The sales person at PFG was a little disappointed, and left the door open for my return (i.e. I have an open account, but $0 deposited). I just spoke with my sales person at PFG, and he is in shock. He knew the CEO almost on a personal level and said his world is now turned upside-down. He was officially laid off as of yesterday, and said the entire company is now in receivership. I asked him what he was going to now - his response: "I think I'm finished with the futures business". This is coming from someone who I think is a genuine person with a great character. He went on to say: "After this, who can you trust?"

-harvester

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  #189 (permalink)
 madLyfe 
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Big Mike View Post
How did it go? I don't watch TV.

Mike

i watched! kevdog the man!

sorry to make light of the situation you guys are in.. i mean you did well on tv..

dont believe anything you hear and only half of what you see

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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  #190 (permalink)
 Big Mike 
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madLyfe View Post
i watched! kevdog the man!

If there is a video, I'd like to check it out.

Mike

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  #191 (permalink)
 Skidboot 
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Big Mike View Post
How did it go? I don't watch TV.

Mike

I watched it. He did a nice job.

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  #192 (permalink)
 Skidboot 
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Big Mike View Post
If there is a video, I'd like to check it out.

Mike

I have it recorded on my AT&T Uverse DVR. Dont know if there is a way to post the file. Anyone?

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  #193 (permalink)
 FrankFX 
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brevco View Post
I also heard that today Woodie was introducing a new "Woodie" bar called NADAX bars. ?? Wonder what that's all about. Maybe hybrid or JAM renkos. I haven't seen them.

he named his "new revolutionary bars" woodies nadex bars

Nadex, the North American Derivatives Exchange, he is pushing a while now.

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  #194 (permalink)
 Powdrpig 
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IB customers can setup a securities sweep acct that is protected by SIPC. It appears that the default setting is not to sweep. Go to Account on your TWS . . then Manage Account, Settings, Configure Account, Excess Funds Sweep. The following is shown to select a sweep setting. This will be needed to be done on each of your accounts . . .

Your Interactive Brokers Universal Account is authorized to trade securities products, commodities/futures products and Foreign Exchange ("forex") transactions and therefore consists of two underlying accounts, a securities account governed by rules of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and a futures account governed by rules of the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC).

Whether you have assets in an IB securities account or in an IB futures account, your assets are protected by U.S. federal regulations governing how brokers like IB must protect your property and funds. In the IB securities account, your assets are protected by SEC and SIPC rules (Note: foreign currency is protected to the extent used to purchase securities). In the IB futures account, your assets are protected by CFTC rules requiring segregation of customer funds. You are also protected by IB's strong financial position and our conservative risk management philosophy. See IB's Strength & Security page.

As part of the IB Universal Account service, you have authorized IB to automatically transfer funds as necessary between your IB securities account and your IB futures account in order to satisfy margin requirements in either account.

Please note:

All IB customer deposits are initially received into the IB securities account and will remain in that account unless you choose commodities sweep below.
Selecting "securities" sweep below is strongly recommended for any customer identified as a securities pattern day trader.
Regardless of your choice, IB will generally keep a small buffer of excess margin funds in each account in order to prevent excessive transfers back and forth as your margined securities and futures positions fluctuate in value.


Please select a sweep method:

Do not sweep excess funds
Sweep excess funds into my IB securities account
Sweep excess funds into my IB commodities account

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  #195 (permalink)
 brevco 
Denham Springs, LA
 
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I was under the impression all accounts are frozen so I didn't even ask. I would imagine if they allowed people to withdraw funds there would be a mass exodus. I just called again and spoke to Neal (broker). He confirmed that all accounts are frozen and now that it is going to court, it could be a long time before any of us see a resolution. We all know how long things take when the courts get involved.

Looks like there will be 200 or 300 more people going on unemployment!! None of them will be getting a paycheck as of yesterday.

Neal also told me that they were ordered to liquidate all positions because they were afraid if clients with open positions weren't watching it and they lost more money, then that would mean even fewer funds in the coffer.....so PFG didn't wait for anyone to liquidate their open positions.....they went ahead and liquidated the positions on behalf of their clients.



Big Mike View Post
Did they say anything about honoring withdraw requests? Did you try to place a wire out?

Mike


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  #196 (permalink)
 ron99 
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PFGBest's Canadian Clients' Money Is Accounted For-Canadian Regulator



--PFGBest's Canadian clients have their money accounted for - Regulator

--Canadian clients can liquidate their positions and prepare for a bulk transfer to new firm

--RJ O'Brien's Canadian unit named as new firm by regulator

By Tatyana Shumsky

NEW YORK--PFGBest's Canadian clients have their funds accounted for and are approved to transfer their futures accounts in bulk to a new firm, Canadian regulator Investment Industry Regulatory Organization of Canada (IIROC) said Tuesday in a statement.

Peregrine Financial Group Canada, Inc., a unit of embattled futures and currency brokerage PFGBest, isn't subject to or affected by the regulatory actions of the National Futures Association, a U.S. futures industry self-regulatory body, IIROC said.

"It appears that all clients monies and assets are accounted for at the Canadian subsidiary," IIROC said in a statement.

"Clients can liquidate their contract positions directly through Peregrine Financial Group Canada," it added.

The Canadian regulator has named RJ O'Brien & Associates Canada Inc, a unit of RJ O'Brien, as the recipient of the bulk transfers from PFGBest's Canadian unit.

Write to Tatyana Shumsky at tatyana.shumsky@dowjones.com

PFGBest's Canadian Clients' Money Is Accounted For-Canadian Regulator

So Canadian traders have gone through the MF Global and PFG messes without losing a penny. Shame on the US.

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 itrade2win 
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Big Mike View Post
How did it go? I don't watch TV.

Mike

I watched it, I think Kevin did a very nice job, kudos to Kevin. Also wanted to say that I feel for those who had accounts with PFG. Very disheartening and I hope for the best.

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  #198 (permalink)
 trendisyourfriend 
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I think it might be time to create a thread to help the small retail trader on how to do this type of research, what to ask etc. In any case, i thank you for reminding us some obvious considerations. BTW, i wonder what Mattz from optimus think about all this fiasco.


Private Banker View Post
...The futures industry is still in the wild west of the financial world. Some important things to remember here are:

- First and foremost, only keep enough money to conduct your day-to-day trading while having enough capital to assume the risk you're taking on.
- Be proactive about taking your profits out of your trading account on a normal basis. This isn't a savings account, you make no interest on idle cash. Once you have "enough" saved from your trades to cover whatever plus taxes, look to increase the account as you plan to increase size.
- Stay on top of your broker(s). Know where they hold their seg funds, what is their overall business structure, how do they rank among other brokers? Just because your broker appeared on this ratings list, what was the reason for their ranking?
- Do not put all your eggs in one basket. Have relationships with several brokers. If one of them were to be involved with a fiasco like this, have a plan B, C, etc. Again, these accounts should only be funded enough to allow you to conduct your daily business.

I think many are panicking that their brokers are going to be next. Just do your best to be informed of what's going on and follow what I've said here. Also, do not put all your eggs in one basket. Have relationships with several brokers.


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  #199 (permalink)
 liquidcci 
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brevco View Post
I was under the impression all accounts are frozen so I didn't even ask. I would imagine if they allowed people to withdraw funds there would be a mass exodus. I just called again and spoke to Neal (broker). He confirmed that all accounts are frozen and now that it is going to court, it could be a long time before any of us see a resolution. We all know how long things take when the courts get involved.

Looks like there will be 200 or 300 more people going on unemployment!! None of them will be getting a paycheck as of yesterday.

Neal also told me that they were ordered to liquidate all positions because they were afraid if clients with open positions weren't watching it and they lost more money, then that would mean even fewer funds in the coffer.....so PFG didn't wait for anyone to liquidate their open positions.....they went ahead and liquidated the positions on behalf of their clients.


If what we are hearing is true someone in PFG pilfered segregated funds. Most likely the reason all accounts were frozen by the regulators was to keep any money left from going out into a Swiss bank account. They freeze everything until they can figure out what is going on. IMO it is not about keeping a mass exodus from happening because according to what is being report there is only $5 mil of $200 mil plus left in segregated accounts. Meaning there is no money for customers to withdraw allegedly.

Hopefully the money has not been washed out in losses but was moved and can be traced and recovered. Really feel for all involved. I had a PFG account at one time but left because their feed was so horrendous. Could have just as easily been me.

"The day I became a winning trader was the day it became boring. Daily losses no longer bother me and daily wins no longer excited me. Took years of pain and busting a few accounts before finally got my mind right. I survived the darkness within and now just chillax and let my black box do the work."
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 kevinkdog   is a Vendor
 
 
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shanmugs View Post
I have it recorded on my AT&T Uverse DVR. Dont know if there is a way to post the file. Anyone?


Thanks for the kind words. First time doing that sort of thing, so I was just a bit nervous!

I will post a link when I get if from FBN.

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