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NinjaTrader Brokerage Services (after NT acquired Mirus Futures)
Started:June 30th, 2014 (10:32 AM) by NinjaTrader Views / Replies:134,795 / 656
Last Reply:October 13th, 2016 (03:49 PM) Attachments:9

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NinjaTrader Brokerage Services (after NT acquired Mirus Futures)

Old July 19th, 2014, 12:18 AM   #271 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Nashua New Hampshire
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader, TradeStation
Broker/Data: optimusfutures.com, Optimus Futures
Favorite Futures: TF
 
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wirechild View Post
I guess it is easy jump out there with those comments but what facts do you have to back that up? I am curious to read up on one example since this has been trodden many times. I really couldn't find one with a few google searches.

I am not sure I would agree that this is a bad move for Ninjatrader. There are many successful platforms that only work with one broker. Cutting back on the brokers supported could strengthen the platform. Over the years I have used a lot of different trading platforms (not specific to a certain market) and have always felt the most stable ones were proprietary to a broker.

Although it is ironic that you list Tradestation as one of your favorite platforms. I haven't looked in a while but would guess that the number of brokers they support are small. Certainly not supported by Optimus.

Unless you know some history I do not, Tradestation was always a platform based brokerage. So you knew upfront, and brokers also knew upfront where things stood. The issue is not in being a platform - broker combo, but in how you presented yourself and sold yourself in the trading community.

Brokers need platforms for their clients to trade. Reducing the number of platforms available can only hurt the consumer in the long run. But I do hope this turns out well for everyone.

And what are you referring to in terms of "back that up"? I gave you NT's own link. Click the link.

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Old July 19th, 2014, 01:17 AM   #272 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Columbus, OH
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NT-9G, TOS
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SierraChart View Post
Server-side OCO and bracket orders for Rithmic through Optimus Futures will be supported by Sierra Chart in August 2014.

Server-side OCO is already supported with CQG and others and bracket support will also come out in August 2014 for CQG as well . And Interactive Brokers. There is no need to do this by owning a brokerage. It only requires good cooperation between the front and backend trading platform providers if necessary.

LOL this is hardly the place to promote sierra chart. it's about ninja trader.

and please don't start the nonsense about front and backend again. I'm very confident ninja trader knows what they are doing. they certainly don't need your advice.

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Old July 19th, 2014, 01:53 AM   #273 (permalink)
Identify Evaluate Execute
Mercer Island WA
 
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Platform: Ninjatrader/Strategy Desk
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Some additional points to add:

1. Ninjatrader has zero obligation, moral or otherwise to continue a partnership with Optimus or any other broker.

2.The loyalty argument is weak. Partnerships are supposed to be two sided. In strict revenue terms I'd bet the brokers benefited far more from their clients using Ninjatrader than Ninjatrader received using the brokers. Furthermore none offered ninjatrader exclusively so I'm not sure what the brokers have to complain about.

3. The objective of Ninjatrader is to maximize it's return on its Mirus investment for its shareholders not the shareholders of Optimus or anybody else. This is business not Socialist charity.

4. If Optimus or other brokers lose a high proportion of their revenue due to this change then this is the fault of the brokers not Ninjatrader. Business 101, ensure your revenue sources are diversified and not concentrated in one/or two areas. In fact I'd suggest Ninjatrader would prefer to have even fewer brokers and will probably cut this down in due course. The problem with a very small pool of brokers makes the multi-broker license a tougher sell plus existing license holders would probably ask for partial refunds. Every broker on the eco system list is now a competitor. Slowly this list will probably dwindle as Ninjatrader move away from the multibroker license model to focusing on growing the brokerage revenue.

5. Ninjatrader should be commended with this Mirus acquisition. The Big tick/Zenfire screwup virtually destroyed the value of the Mirus brand. The resulted in an opportunity for Ninjatrader and probably paid less than 50% of the market value prior to the Big tick/Zenfire screw up.

6. From my own experiences with the Ninjatrader forum I rate their customer service 10 out of 10 in every respect. Following the settling in period and termination of poor performing Mirus personnel the same level of service can be expected by Ninjatrader brokerage. Of course this remains to be seen.

7. As Ninjatrader brokerage gains traction and if service levels prove to be superior or at least equal to other brokers, there will likely be a significant migration from other retail brokers (such as Optimus and AMP and others) to Ninjatrader brokerage. Firms who are heavily reliant on generating revenue from existing Ninjatrader customers will either have to cut their fees to match Ninjatrader or risk losing their existing Ninjatrader users to Ninjtrader brokerage. Some may not survive.

8. A key benefit of Ninjatrader providing both brokerage and platform services is it cuts down third party software risk. Currently if a system glitch occurs and the trader loses money, the broker often blames the platform vendor and in turn the vendor blames the broker. In most cases it's the trader who ends up carrying the loss. At least with platform the provider and broker under the same ownership risks are lessened as there is only one party to point the finger.

9. The other key benefit is server side OCO. Once server side OCO is implemented and, apart from financial risk diversification there are even fewer reasons to use other brokers. I'd like to see this implemented sooner than later. I think next year is too late to get this moving. For one, I'm sick of using the IB TWS for overnight trades as I simply cannot take the risk of my system going down in the middle of the night, the empire state building being bombed and waking up with naked positions and probably a naked bank account.

10. Despite the attractiveness of NinjaTrader brokerage and commissions structure, standard risk management principles must still apply. Never put your entire account with NinjaTrader brokerage. At the end of the day we are still exposed to Dorman. As we know FCMs are a "black hole" of mystery. Generally we only know there is a problem once they go under.

11. Our supposed protector, the NFA continues to be an incompetent organization in my opinion and appears more concerned with protecting its members than protecting traders. There needs to a top to bottom restructuring of that organization.

Irrespective of whether the NFA has the systems in place to monitor the segregated bank accounts there is no guarantee they will do their job properly. There is further evidence of continued incompetence in the Vision debacle. From the press release on their website.

NFA bars Connecticut futures commission merchant Vision Financial Markets LLC, Virginia commodity trading advisor Ace Investment Strategists LLC and its principal, Yu-Dee Chang from membership

We can see here in Paragraph 2.

The Complaints also charged Vision with facilitating Ace's actions. The Complaint states that this activity took place over a three-year period, and that Vision was in a position to detect and stop the abuses.

and here in Paragraph 3.

As stated in NFA's Complaint, Vision has had a long history of supervisory issues during its tenure as an NFA Member. It has been the subject of four prior NFA Complaints three of which charged the firm with failing to diligently supervise various aspects of the firm's operations

This shows how the NFA is more concerned protecting its members than protecting the interests of traders. The NFA let this go on for 3 years with no less than 4 prior NFA complaints. They should adopt a zero tolerance policy in this regard. One strike and they are out. Furthermore we see:

Vision's owners, Robert Boshnack and Howard Rothman, were not named in the September 2013 Complaint and have announced their intentions to form a new FCM called High Ridge Futures LLC (High Ridge). If High Ridge applies for membership, NFA will conduct a thorough fitness examination.

Zero accountability for the owners further illustrating the lack of independence of the NFA.

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Old July 19th, 2014, 01:59 AM   #274 (permalink)
Identify Evaluate Execute
Mercer Island WA
 
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Platform: Ninjatrader/Strategy Desk
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Due Diligence Questions

@NinjaTrader

1. What guaranteed timeline (if any) do you put on raising commissions? Is this an "introductory offer" and you intend to raise the commission rates once you have secured a critical mass of ninjatrader platform traders from other competitor brokerages?

2. How much due diligence did you do on Mirus? Was there anything we need to be concerned about?

3. Did you do background checks on key Mirus staff that transferred into key positions within the NinjaTrader brokerage? Are the Mirus transferees responding well to adopting the culture of Ninjatrader?

I'd like to avoid the inconvenience of opening an account at NinjaTrader brokerage only to find the typical dreadful customer service offered by most privately owned futures brokers.

3. How comfortable are you with Dorman? Are you intending to make a change?

4. Do you intend to incorporate prop trading into the brokerage?

5. What, if any additional risk management mechanisms do you intend to put in place to further protect the traders/customers of NinjaTrader brokerage?

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Old July 19th, 2014, 03:39 AM   #275 (permalink)
Elite Member
Singapore
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT/IB for FX, NT/AMP for eurex/cme
Favorite Futures: eur/yen, usd/jpy, nk, eur/usd, fgbl, cl
 
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Futures Edge on FIO

Are you a NinjaTrader user?

 
where on your website does it says "any broker who supports Ninjatrader through CQG technology ?"

NinjaTrader Ecosystem | Broker Partners




NinjaTrader View Post
This is an incorrect statement.

NinjaTrader users always have choice:
  • For clients who purchased a license prior to July 15th, their choice will always include all brokerage and brokerage technologies that we support.
  • For new clients who purchase after July 15th, their choice includes the brokerages listed here NinjaTrader Ecosystem | Broker Partners in addition to any broker who supports NinjaTrader through CQG technology.


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Old July 19th, 2014, 06:14 AM   #276 (permalink)
Elite Member
Boca Raton
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Variety
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures, LLC
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djkiwi View Post
If Optimus or other brokers lose a high proportion of their revenue due to this change then this is the fault of the brokers not Ninjatrader. Business 101, ensure your revenue sources are diversified and not concentrated in one/or two areas. .

What you call "Diversified" is rather something that implies "pushing" platforms and making sure that our customers are in different softwares? That stands against my philosophy because I should help a customer based on his true needs and not fill some sales agenda for "diversification.

In lieu of my customers really "fighting" for me, I see that I did the right thing all along. I have zero intentions of changing my philosophy.

Lastly, we do have customers in other platforms that we list on our site, but that was based on customer choice and not our need to "diversify". Those who don't have a preference are always asked questions to make sure its a long term match.

So much for my promises not to post here anymore.

Matt

PM with any questions about optimusfutures (800) 771-6748 (561) 367 8686. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL RISK OF LOSS IN FUTURES TRADING.

Last edited by mattz; July 19th, 2014 at 06:27 AM.
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Old July 19th, 2014, 01:57 PM   #277 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Nashua New Hampshire
 
Futures Experience: Master
Platform: NinjaTrader, TradeStation
Broker/Data: optimusfutures.com, Optimus Futures
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djkiwi,
I appreciate your analysis of the acquisition, but you are missing or glossing over a part of the dynamic. We are all customers of NinjaTrader. We purchased this platform because it connected to a long list of brokers. That has been removed (for future customers), so our contract with NinjaTrader has been modified. Even if we are grandfathered in, this has a huge impact on our interests as customers. I have reason to believe, and this is not uninformed, that even the short list of broker-partners will get shorter over time.

So you can theorize about "zero obligation" and "moral" codes, but that is just theory. The reality is that NinjaTrader needs customers, and I have power in this relationship. They have to answer to future customers, who are now going to be increasingly locked in to a single brokerage when they choose this platform.

I have worked with Optimus Futures for years. They too have been customers of NinjaTrader. They promoted the NinjaTrader platform and helped promote Rithmic as a data source. NinjaTrader for years pushed Kinetic, and it was only because of outside brokers like Optimus that Rithmic became such a force in the market-access world.

My point is not that NinjaTrader should act outside their interests, but to act in their interests and continue to work with brokers like Optimus.



djkiwi View Post
Some additional points to add:

1. Ninjatrader has zero obligation, moral or otherwise to continue a partnership with Optimus or any other broker.

2.The loyalty argument is weak. Partnerships are supposed to be two sided. In strict revenue terms I'd bet the brokers benefited far more from their clients using Ninjatrader than Ninjatrader received using the brokers. Furthermore none offered ninjatrader exclusively so I'm not sure what the brokers have to complain about.

3. The objective of Ninjatrader is to maximize it's return on its Mirus investment for its shareholders not the shareholders of Optimus or anybody else. This is business not Socialist charity.

4. If Optimus or other brokers lose a high proportion of their revenue due to this change then this is the fault of the brokers not Ninjatrader. Business 101, ensure your revenue sources are diversified and not concentrated in one/or two areas. In fact I'd suggest Ninjatrader would prefer to have even fewer brokers and will probably cut this down in due course. The problem with a very small pool of brokers makes the multi-broker license a tougher sell plus existing license holders would probably ask for partial refunds. Every broker on the eco system list is now a competitor. Slowly this list will probably dwindle as Ninjatrader move away from the multibroker license model to focusing on growing the brokerage revenue.

[cut]...

.


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Old July 19th, 2014, 02:44 PM   #278 (permalink)
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Platform: ThinkorSwim, Ninjatrader, Multicharts
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I have purchased NT for only 1 reason it gives access to multiple brokers. The purpose of buying NT is beaten and the only choice is you continue with limited brokers that will most likely get reduced further as time goes by. I also hold lifetime license of multicharts. I am now a client of NT brokerage. If I get a good service I will stick around else I will use Mc or even give Sierra charts a shot. I have licenses for Mc and mc.net.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


Last edited by optionzen; July 19th, 2014 at 04:28 PM.
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Old July 19th, 2014, 06:00 PM   #279 (permalink)
Elite Member
Barcelona Spain
 
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Favorite Futures: ES, gold, oil, silver
 
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You can't understand how good Optimus Futures is if you don't try it. They are not just a broker, they provide me guidance and they worked really hard to find out the best solution. Their dedication is outstanding because they do care about the customers...At that time, I was not even a customer for Optimus, but Matt and its professional team just gave me the best. Wish Ninja and Optimus reach an agreement, if not it would be really sad to have no choice at all.

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Old July 19th, 2014, 11:31 PM   #280 (permalink)
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Jfairtrade View Post
You can't understand how good Optimus Futures is if you don't try it. They are not just a broker, they provide me guidance and they worked really hard to find out the best solution. Their dedication is outstanding because they do care about the customers...At that time, I was not even a customer for Optimus, but Matt and its professional team just gave me the best. Wish Ninja and Optimus reach an agreement, if not it would be really sad to have no choice at all.

This thread is not about Optimus Futures. If you are happy with them, good for you. Stay with them. I've read countless positive reviews of Optimus on this site and have no doubt that Matt and his team are committed to helping their clients. On the other hand, when I spoke with Matt (many months ago), he elected not to be price competitive with my current rates. So I didn't open with him. I don't want a hand-holding broker. What I want from my broker is GREAT fills and really good commissions. And frankly, when you start to really trade, pennies count. You want to pay an extra 20 cents round turn in order to have a broker that is a swell guy? That's a terrible business decision unless you're planning to spend a lot of time getting help or you're a swing trader that doesn't trade often.

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