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When to trade ZB/ZN?
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When to trade ZB/ZN?

  #41 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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guidosl View Post
Can anyone tell me how it is possible that in the ZN and ZB and other futures, the amount of limit orders are just as high during the overnight as during the day session- but almost nothing is trading there. Who is putting these limit orders there? On a regular day in ZN we have 2-3000 limit orders above and below price - (even if the market is very slow during the overnight). Any ideas?

As said on many other occasions: Most of the liquidity that you can see in the order books / DOMs is purely virtual.

Virtual means that there are tons of 1 contract limits that are just there in order to ping the respective markets,
not in order to get filled on notable size. For algos it's the cheapest way to find out if 1 contract increments can
trigger any move or not. If so, the rest of that order level is often cancelled within fractions of a second so that
only more passive algos and retail fills remain. (Since the retail customers are simply too lame to get out of the
way, they e.g. experience such moves as "stop fishing" and wonder why the move regularly ends just after their
orders have been absorbed).

During the off-hours many 1 contract ping limits are still there, but they do not even find a match that could be pinged.

That kind of "order flow" is also one reason why the average trade sizes are falling deeper and deeper - ZN ~10
contracts per trade, ZB ~3 con/tr at the moment during the prime time - which is ridiculously low compared with
historical levels but a natural result of ever-growing trading automation.

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  #42 (permalink)
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These are spread traders.....



guidosl View Post
Can anyone tell me how it is possible that in the ZN and ZB and other futures, the amount of limit orders are just as high during the overnight as during the day session- but almost nothing is trading there. Who is putting these limit orders there? On a regular day in ZN we have 2-3000 limit orders above and below price - (even if the market is very slow during the overnight). Any ideas?


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  #43 (permalink)
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starting to trade ZN


I trade the ZN from 6am-10am Central. I am out of market with major news (Unemployment Numbers) and most minor news.

I trade 6a-7a waiting for technical plays like ranges or reversion to a HVN. Then start trying to gauge and join momentum come 7am. I have a hard time lasting till 10a. I get tired or just lose ability to stay focused to have a read on the DOM (I have ZN, ZB, ZF, UB, and ES all up) - it is not having all the DOMs up that is difficult it is just needing the experience to know what to expect. As long as I can read the DOM and am alert I stay in till 10am. Like this morning, I had a good grasp on the bottom of the markets and was expecting chop with the chance of movement up - not ideal since not know a solid target, but a read nonetheless. I couldn't get filled since I was going too far out go the range and the volume seems really high right now. Then I was dozing off since I only had 5.5 hours sleep, I need at least 7 to be alert and effective.

Been watching the DOMs for about a month and the reads are starting to happen. Prior to that month I was just taking shots, but dug myself out of -8 ticks to 6 in like less than 1 week. Now I go for larger plays (3-5 ticks), but find it is hard to get fills in time for the moves or just don't see it in time.

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  #44 (permalink)
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I only used to trade the ZB from 1 hour before US session opened and traded 2-3 hours in to the US session.
Back then in my experience this where the best hours, no idea how it is today.

I decided to no longer trade the ZB and ZN directional.





Ps; For everyone reading this: A like/thanks to my original post in the link below would be very much appreciated since i can win a price with it!
https://futures.io/traders-hideout/21330-battlestations-show-us-your-trading-desks-79.html#post693242

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  #45 (permalink)
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I do not like to have an open trade during the open of the US session. But there are some good moves at the London Open...just get flat before the US open.

ES


RDK91 View Post
I only used to trade the ZB from 1 hour before US session opened and traded 2-3 hours in to the US session.
Back then in my experience this where the best hours, no idea how it is today.

I decided to no longer trade the ZB and ZN directional.





Ps; For everyone reading this: A like/thanks to my original post in the link below would be very much appreciated since i can win a price with it!
https://futures.io/traders-hideout/21330-battlestations-show-us-your-trading-desks-79.html#post693242


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  #46 (permalink)
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ElectricSavant View Post
I do not like to have an open trade during the open of the US session. But there are some good moves at the London Open...just get flat before the US open.

ES

I just checked quite a few day's in ZB for any out of the ordinary spikes/abnormal movement during or right after the open (assuming you mean the US stock open?) and i was unable to find anything special, never experienced it during the time i was trading the ZB either.

Can you explain what you mean or why do you believe it is better to be flat at the open?

If i would want to trade bonds during EU session i would prefer to be looking at FGBL and other European bonds.

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  #47 (permalink)
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A lot of reversals happen at the open of the US session.

In the ZB I get a lot of winning trades at midnight (mst). They can last a long time though. I prefer to trade after the US Open as there is more follow through.

I do not trade with traditional time bars.

ES


RDK91 View Post
I just checked quite a few day's in ZB for any out of the ordinary spikes/abnormal movement during or right after the open (assuming you mean the US stock open?) and i was unable to find anything special, never experienced it during the time i was trading the ZB either.

Can you explain what you mean or why do you believe it is better to be flat at the open?

If i would want to trade bonds during EU session i would prefer to be looking at FGBL and other European bonds.


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  #48 (permalink)
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RDK91 View Post
I only used to trade the ZB from 1 hour before US session opened and traded 2-3 hours in to the US session.
Back then in my experience this where the best hours, no idea how it is today.

I decided to no longer trade the ZB and ZN directional.





Ps; For everyone reading this: A like/thanks to my original post in the link below would be very much appreciated since i can win a price with it!
https://futures.io/traders-hideout/21330-battlestations-show-us-your-trading-desks-79.html#post693242

Why not trade ZN directional any more?

Thanks,

John

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  #49 (permalink)
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johny1971 View Post
Why not trade ZN directional any more?

Thanks,

John

I find ZN and ZB harder to trade directional then for example the ES.
They are more used for spread trading then for directional trading.

I might do some investments in bonds on the long term but no more day trading ZB and ZN for me.





Ps; For everyone reading this: A like/thanks to my original post in the link below would be very much appreciated since i can win a price with it!
https://futures.io/traders-hideout/21330-battlestations-show-us-your-trading-desks-79.html#post693242

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  #50 (permalink)
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RDK91 View Post
I find ZN and ZB harder to trade directional then for example the ES.
They are more used for spread trading then for directional trading.

I might do some investments in bonds on the long term but no more day trading ZB and ZN for me.





Ps; For everyone reading this: A like/thanks to my original post in the link below would be very much appreciated since i can win a price with it!
https://futures.io/traders-hideout/21330-battlestations-show-us-your-trading-desks-79.html#post693242

For me ZN and

Sent using the futures.io mobile app

For me, I find that ZN/ZB are better for mean reversion scalping. I have never seen more than a 5 tick loss trading these products. Typically my losses are no more than 1-3 ticks. I trade it scalping the DOM with a Line on Close chart just to see the ranges. My biggest problem is that it is like watching paint dry.

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