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When to trade ZB/ZN?
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When to trade ZB/ZN?

  #31 (permalink)
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@SilverFut ; What do you watch on the DOM

How do you use the DOM?
What size move are you targeting; 2 tics ; 6 tics or 16 tics or??
How long do you hold a trade?
I tried both Book map and Jigsaw and found it a distraction.
Too much information,
then getting sucked into too small a timeframe.
What do you focus on watching the DOM?

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  #32 (permalink)
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Going back to the original question, there's some excellent volume flow and liquidity data in this paper recently published by the CME: http://www.cmegroup.com/education/files/new-treasury-market-paradigm.pdf

A worthwhile read for any rates trader.

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  #33 (permalink)
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trade888 View Post
How do you use the DOM?
What size move are you targeting; 2 tics ; 6 tics or 16 tics or??
How long do you hold a trade?
I tried both Book map and Jigsaw and found it a distraction.
Too much information,
then getting sucked into too small a timeframe.
What do you focus on watching the DOM?



How do you use the DOM?
- Watch the clips in the Jigsaw Members area, then just sit and watch the DOM for weeks. It starts to become clearer the more you watch. At first it made NO sense at all to me. I'm still a LONG way from being good at it but the more I watch, the more I start to see. I also bought the "No BS Trading" beginner course. It doesn't teach you anything you wont get yourself from watching the DOM for 12+mths but it sure helped shorten the learning curve for me. 1st time I read and watched it I didn't understand a thing, then went and watched DOM for 1 mth, 2nd time through No BS course and a few things started to click, then back to watching the DOM for 1mth, and so on.
Up to last week I was using a combination of the "No BS" setup and using a 1 range chart as spoken about in the Jigsaw "Stephen Kelly method" talks. Since its been in this slow tight range most of the day, I've switched back to the "No BS" setup.


What size move are you targeting; 2 tics ; 6 tics or 16 tics or??
- Whatever the market will give me on the day. The DOM will show when its running out of momentum. A few weeks ago I was regularly crushing 10-20 tick moves on the ZB at least 2-3 times a week. Since (about?) the 30yr bond sale last week, I've been getting 2-4 tick moves. (And I'm working hard for those). I've really tried to stop looking for "big" moves. I sat down and figured I NEED 4 ticks a day and that is now what I focus on. Once I know I can repeatedly hit this target then its no issue to add more contracts. There are days when I get far more then this but I don't count on having those days, its just cream.
There are STILL days when I loose and I'm finding it easier to identify what is the cause of that now because everything is either a psychological fault with myself (over trading) or I made a mistake reading the DOM (inexperience). I can't "blame" anything else now because I'm not trading % chance of something happening again in the future as in the past.


How long do you hold a trade?
- Again, the DOM will say when sentiment is turning and/or momentum is running out. It might be in and out within 5 seconds if something changes and its going to go against me. Other times it can be 1-60mins. It ALL depends on what everyone else is doing and what the DOM says.



What do you focus on watching the DOM?
- Listen to the Jigsaw learning material and follow the process. I didn't at the start and tried to jump straight in using EVERYTHING the Jigsaw DOM has to offer and it IS information overload. If you step back and slowly add in 1 bit after another of information like Jigsaw recommend, your eyes naturally start finding what YOU need to be drawn to when you need it. It takes TIME, just sitting and watching what is happening on the DOM. Its not even a conscious watching, I tried that and was trying to force myself to find this or that but when I stepped back and watched, things start jumping out and grabbing your attention after awhile, then I realized those things were things I had been trying to force find originally.


I'm by no means great at it yet. I had been trading ES and using the DOM on that but I just couldn't get my head around it because of how fast it tends to move on the DOM and bounce around over 3+ price levels. I had watched ES for months and never got all the way there in grasping it, it always felt just out of my grasp but then I switched to ZB/ZN and it all started to pop out at me. I could start seeing when direction switched and market participants changed direction, started to see what are pauses and continuations. The slower market works better for my current ability. There are days when I feel like pulling out my own eyeballs because of how slow these markets can be but it means I have the TIME to see what's happening.


As for time frame, if your reading order-flow using the DOM, there is NO time frame. Your at the pure edge of the market. It is the ONLY leading indication of what market participants are going to do in the future as you can see the pending orders in the Depth Of Market. EVERYTHING else, candle stick charts on any time frame, numbers bars, indicators, whatever are ALL historical tracking of what has already happened in the market. The DOM lets you see what's about to happen in the market.


If you haven't read - "A Complete Guide to Volume Price Analysis" by Anna Coulling, grab a eBook copy off amazon or elsewhere (A couple of $). It completely changed my outlook on the markets and sent me off in a completely new direction. It really opened my eyes to volume/order-flow and how it can't be hidden. That finally lead me to using the Jigsaw DOM (after many false paths that were still stuck using historical representations of data) and I wish I had found it years ago because its finally being able to SEE the actual market as it happens and what's building before it happens.


I've still got a LONG way to go but I'm finally sitting down and starting to see what's happening, not just trying to make educated guesses based on the % chance that what happened in the past at a certain point might happen again in the future.

There is no reason you can't keep using that same method EG- back-testing shows a 78% chance that 4hr candle price will reject from a 30 EMA. Start adding in the DOM and you can SEE which are the 78% of the times it will work and which are the times it will fail.





If you start using the Jigsaw DOM, just give it TIME. Your brain just starts seeing things as they happen that it has watched many times before. That process takes time and is different for everyone. I'm a slow learner and its taken me a good 4 months of watching everyday to start getting it and I'm sure I'll keep learning things for a long time.

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  #34 (permalink)
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trade888 View Post
How do you use the DOM?
What size move are you targeting; 2 tics ; 6 tics or 16 tics or??
How long do you hold a trade?
I tried both Book map and Jigsaw and found it a distraction.
Too much information,
then getting sucked into too small a timeframe.
What do you focus on watching the DOM?

I will recommend two things:

1) Close you charts and only watch the DOM. Give it try, stick to it for 1 month. If you don't see anything after 1 month, maybe it is not for you.

2) Don't look for "setups" per se. It's more about getting a feel for the market you trade. If I had to dumb it down, I'd say there are three aspects to watch:
a) who is advertising (spoofing, pulling orders)?
b) who is trapped or feels trapped (fell for the advertisement)?
c) who is in control (e.g. if you see the market going one way on high volume and then the pullback is very light volume, look for continuation)?

It is often a combination of different things you see. It's more a skill than intellectual knowledge. Give it time and don't rush it.

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  #35 (permalink)
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Can I just say this thread has been really useful, I'm at the start of trading the Treasuries using nothing but the DOM and the No BS Method and it's great to get all your insights. Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using futures.io

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  #36 (permalink)
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"best" time is from the London open (2am) thru the NY close (3pm) EST

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  #37 (permalink)
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SilverFut View Post
How do you use the DOM?
- Watch the clips in the Jigsaw Members area, then just sit and watch the DOM for weeks. It starts to become clearer the more you watch. At first it made NO sense at all to me. I'm still a LONG way from being good at it but the more I watch, the more I start to see. I also bought the "No BS Trading" beginner course. It doesn't teach you anything you wont get yourself from watching the DOM for 12+mths but it sure helped shorten the learning curve for me. 1st time I read and watched it I didn't understand a thing, then went and watched DOM for 1 mth, 2nd time through No BS course and a few things started to click, then back to watching the DOM for 1mth, and so on.
Up to last week I was using a combination of the "No BS" setup and using a 1 range chart as spoken about in the Jigsaw "Stephen Kelly method" talks. Since its been in this slow tight range most of the day, I've switched back to the "No BS" setup.


What size move are you targeting; 2 tics ; 6 tics or 16 tics or??
- Whatever the market will give me on the day. The DOM will show when its running out of momentum. A few weeks ago I was regularly crushing 10-20 tick moves on the ZB at least 2-3 times a week. Since (about?) the 30yr bond sale last week, I've been getting 2-4 tick moves. (And I'm working hard for those). I've really tried to stop looking for "big" moves. I sat down and figured I NEED 4 ticks a day and that is now what I focus on. Once I know I can repeatedly hit this target then its no issue to add more contracts. There are days when I get far more then this but I don't count on having those days, its just cream.
There are STILL days when I loose and I'm finding it easier to identify what is the cause of that now because everything is either a psychological fault with myself (over trading) or I made a mistake reading the DOM (inexperience). I can't "blame" anything else now because I'm not trading % chance of something happening again in the future as in the past.


How long do you hold a trade?
- Again, the DOM will say when sentiment is turning and/or momentum is running out. It might be in and out within 5 seconds if something changes and its going to go against me. Other times it can be 1-60mins. It ALL depends on what everyone else is doing and what the DOM says.



What do you focus on watching the DOM?
- Listen to the Jigsaw learning material and follow the process. I didn't at the start and tried to jump straight in using EVERYTHING the Jigsaw DOM has to offer and it IS information overload. If you step back and slowly add in 1 bit after another of information like Jigsaw recommend, your eyes naturally start finding what YOU need to be drawn to when you need it. It takes TIME, just sitting and watching what is happening on the DOM. Its not even a conscious watching, I tried that and was trying to force myself to find this or that but when I stepped back and watched, things start jumping out and grabbing your attention after awhile, then I realized those things were things I had been trying to force find originally.


I'm by no means great at it yet. I had been trading ES and using the DOM on that but I just couldn't get my head around it because of how fast it tends to move on the DOM and bounce around over 3+ price levels. I had watched ES for months and never got all the way there in grasping it, it always felt just out of my grasp but then I switched to ZB/ZN and it all started to pop out at me. I could start seeing when direction switched and market participants changed direction, started to see what are pauses and continuations. The slower market works better for my current ability. There are days when I feel like pulling out my own eyeballs because of how slow these markets can be but it means I have the TIME to see what's happening.


As for time frame, if your reading order-flow using the DOM, there is NO time frame. Your at the pure edge of the market. It is the ONLY leading indication of what market participants are going to do in the future as you can see the pending orders in the Depth Of Market. EVERYTHING else, candle stick charts on any time frame, numbers bars, indicators, whatever are ALL historical tracking of what has already happened in the market. The DOM lets you see what's about to happen in the market.


If you haven't read - "A Complete Guide to Volume Price Analysis" by Anna Coulling, grab a eBook copy off amazon or elsewhere (A couple of $). It completely changed my outlook on the markets and sent me off in a completely new direction. It really opened my eyes to volume/order-flow and how it can't be hidden. That finally lead me to using the Jigsaw DOM (after many false paths that were still stuck using historical representations of data) and I wish I had found it years ago because its finally being able to SEE the actual market as it happens and what's building before it happens.


I've still got a LONG way to go but I'm finally sitting down and starting to see what's happening, not just trying to make educated guesses based on the % chance that what happened in the past at a certain point might happen again in the future.

There is no reason you can't keep using that same method EG- back-testing shows a 78% chance that 4hr candle price will reject from a 30 EMA. Start adding in the DOM and you can SEE which are the 78% of the times it will work and which are the times it will fail.





If you start using the Jigsaw DOM, just give it TIME. Your brain just starts seeing things as they happen that it has watched many times before. That process takes time and is different for everyone. I'm a slow learner and its taken me a good 4 months of watching everyday to start getting it and I'm sure I'll keep learning things for a long time.

So it's been about 6 months since you posted this. How are things going for you? I am just getting started with Jigsaw DOM and NO BS day trading and I think I'd like to focus on the ZB.

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  #38 (permalink)
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ALC77 View Post
So it's been about 6 months since you posted this. How are things going for you? I am just getting started with Jigsaw DOM and NO BS day trading and I think I'd like to focus on the ZB.

I've been going good over the last 6mths. As far as reading the market, I would tentatively say I've got a good grasp on it now. I'm consistently hitting 4-8 ticks most days and often pick up some good runners at least 2-3 times a month. (This happened late in the last year. It really started to fall together). I would occasionally have a loosing day, maybe 1-2 times a fortnight BUT the most important thing was I had got those way under control and the overall daily loss would be limited - 3-4 ticks.

I've also setup a chart that has the ZB (on top) and ES (bottom) and there has been a pretty consistent inverse relation to them lately (Pre Jan) when major swing points happen through the day. I also started running another ZB and ES DOM setup side by side to just keep a eye on it off to the side to see any major stacking then pulling that can indicate a reversal. Not watching this hard, its just off on one of the other screens and glanced at.

Unfortunately I've had some personal issues from Jan to now that have kept me from trading plus had my computer PSU crap out but as of today, I'm setup and back running (if nothing else pops up)



Ill also add that the Jigsaw training really has some gold spread through it. I try to listen to the Stephen Kelly training in the background 2+ days a wk while trading. I've picked up some things this way watching the live market and actually seeing what he is talking about in real time. It also seems there are little bits that keep popping out over time the more its listened to. Jigsaw really is outstanding value when the training is dug into. A shining light in among all the overpriced and over-hyped BS in the wider world of trader training.


Last edited by SilverFut; March 29th, 2017 at 12:56 AM.
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