NexusFi: Find Your Edge


Home Menu

 





Beginner level bond questions


Discussion in Treasury Notes and Bonds

Updated
      Top Posters
    1. looks_one toshiro with 4 posts (5 thanks)
    2. looks_two FGBL07 with 3 posts (8 thanks)
    3. looks_3 Nikopol with 2 posts (1 thanks)
    4. looks_4 Big Mike with 1 posts (3 thanks)
      Best Posters
    1. looks_one Big Mike with 3 thanks per post
    2. looks_two FGBL07 with 2.7 thanks per post
    3. looks_3 toshiro with 1.3 thanks per post
    4. looks_4 Nikopol with 0.5 thanks per post
    1. trending_up 5,383 views
    2. thumb_up 18 thanks given
    3. group 5 followers
    1. forum 11 posts
    2. attach_file 0 attachments




 
Search this Thread

Beginner level bond questions

  #1 (permalink)
toshiro
London UK
 
Posts: 5 since Feb 2013
Thanks Given: 3
Thanks Received: 5

hello,

I am trading in others fields than bonds and I am as such totally at beginner level in this field. I never traded some so far and miss the practical aspect very much. I read a lot on them, but there are a few questions I haven't find an answer so far.

- do bonds i.e. interest rates fluctuate like stocks?

- if bonds "only" fluctuate when e.g. central banks are releasing the new interest rates, or when moddy's & co are noting a company, wouldn't that make bond trading somehow borrying? i.e. with only a few monitoring & trades at these times of the year?

- does it make sense to buy a bond before the coupon payment and to sell it again just after to cash in the coupon?

- for a given bond (may be you ask which one as there are different classes - let's take a T-bill or a muni or anything you want), how can you see the date of the next coupon payment?

thanks

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:

Can you help answer these questions
from other members on NexusFi?
MC PL editor upgrade
MultiCharts
Pivot Indicator like the old SwingTemp by Big Mike
NinjaTrader
Better Renko Gaps
The Elite Circle
NT7 Indicator Script Troubleshooting - Camarilla Pivots
NinjaTrader
Trade idea based off three indicators.
Traders Hideout
 
Best Threads (Most Thanked)
in the last 7 days on NexusFi
Just another trading journal: PA, Wyckoff & Trends
31 thanks
Spoo-nalysis ES e-mini futures S&P 500
28 thanks
Tao te Trade: way of the WLD
24 thanks
Bigger Wins or Fewer Losses?
20 thanks
GFIs1 1 DAX trade per day journal
17 thanks
  #3 (permalink)
 FGBL07 
Oberhausen, Germany
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierracharts
Broker: Interactive Brokers/DTN IQFeed
Trading: Bund Future
Posts: 277 since Aug 2011
Thanks Given: 100
Thanks Received: 311



toshiro View Post
hello,

I am trading in others fields than bonds and I am as such totally at beginner level in this field. I never traded some so far and miss the practical aspect very much. I read a lot on them, but there are a few questions I haven't find an answer so far.

- do bonds i.e. interest rates fluctuate like stocks?

There are markets for bonds just like for stocks. Called cash markets, don't confuse with with bond futures and their markets. Prices are influenced by demand and supply, stupid remarks from central bankers and so on.


toshiro View Post
- if bonds "only" fluctuate when e.g. central banks are releasing the new interest rates, or when moddy's & co are noting a company, wouldn't that make bond trading somehow borrying? i.e. with only a few monitoring & trades at these times of the year?

Companies may sell bonds too, called corporate bonds, but these are very different from the Notes/Bonds sold by governments.


toshiro View Post
- does it make sense to buy a bond before the coupon payment and to sell it again just after to cash in the coupon?

Nice idea, that's how we all make money...NOT. When you buy a bond you will have to pay the seller the amount of interest due up to the purchase date. Though you will get the complete amount of interest when the coupon is due, you effectively get only the amount from the date of your purchase to the coupon date.

toshiro View Post
- for a given bond (may be you ask which one as there are different classes - let's take a T-bill or a muni or anything you want), how can you see the date of the next coupon payment?

thanks

The issuer will tell you.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)
toshiro
London UK
 
Posts: 5 since Feb 2013
Thanks Given: 3
Thanks Received: 5

Thank you for your reply.


FGBL07 View Post
There are markets for bonds just like for stocks. Called cash markets, don't confuse with with bond futures and their markets. Prices are influenced by demand and supply, stupid remarks from central bankers and so on.

May be to be more concrete (as you write to trade with interactive brokesr), how can you see those cash markets for bonds in interactive borkers' tool?



Quoting 
Companies may sell bonds too, called corporate bonds, but these are very different from the Notes/Bonds sold by governments.




Quoting 
Nice idea, that's how we all make money...NOT. When you buy a bond you will have to pay the seller the amount of interest due up to the purchase date. Though you will get the complete amount of interest when the coupon is due, you effectively get only the amount from the date of your purchase to the coupon date.

I did monitor one t-bill to see a little how it reacts over the time. But nothing really happened, the price remained the same. Does that mean that for a regular income, you would choose a t-bil e.g. and for a more dynamic bond to trade like stocks, you would use one bond in the cash market?



Quoting 
The issuer will tell you.

Where can you find this information? Can you do that in the tool of interactive b.?

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #5 (permalink)
 FGBL07 
Oberhausen, Germany
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierracharts
Broker: Interactive Brokers/DTN IQFeed
Trading: Bund Future
Posts: 277 since Aug 2011
Thanks Given: 100
Thanks Received: 311


toshiro View Post
Thank you for your reply.



May be to be more concrete (as you write to trade with interactive brokesr), how can you see those cash markets for bonds in interactive borkers' tool?

Right-click an empty line in the TWS grid, select "Treasury Bond selector". Also take a look at their website: https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=products&p=bond


Quoting 
I did monitor one t-bill to see a little how it reacts over the time. But nothing really happened, the price remained the same. Does that mean that for a regular income, you would choose a t-bil e.g. and for a more dynamic bond to trade like stocks, you would use one bond in the cash market?

The sensitivity of a Note/Bond to changes depends upon its duration. Please look up bond duration in Wikipedia. I do not want to copy the article.

Quoting 
Where can you find this information? Can you do that in the tool of interactive b.?

I don't know

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)
toshiro
London UK
 
Posts: 5 since Feb 2013
Thanks Given: 3
Thanks Received: 5

ok, so practically how would you trade bonds? is it so immediate like stocks and it moove each day or do you wait 1x a month for the interest rates to change and you take a bet on these changes and the rest of the time, you have "nothing" to do?

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #7 (permalink)
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 Big Mike 
Manta, Ecuador
Site Administrator
Developer
Swing Trader
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Custom solution
Broker: IBKR
Trading: Stocks & Futures
Frequency: Every few days
Duration: Weeks
Posts: 50,442 since Jun 2009
Thanks Given: 33,215
Thanks Received: 101,602

@toshiro, please use the Thanks button when someone answers your question.

Mike

We're here to help: just ask the community or contact our Help Desk

Quick Links: Change your Username or Register as a Vendor
Searching for trading reviews? Review this list
Lifetime Elite Membership: Sign-up for only $149 USD
Exclusive money saving offers from our Site Sponsors: Browse Offers
Report problems with the site: Using the NexusFi changelog thread
Follow me on Twitter Visit my NexusFi Trade Journal Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #8 (permalink)
toshiro
London UK
 
Posts: 5 since Feb 2013
Thanks Given: 3
Thanks Received: 5

a feature I didn't know about!

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:
  #9 (permalink)
 FGBL07 
Oberhausen, Germany
 
Experience: Advanced
Platform: Sierracharts
Broker: Interactive Brokers/DTN IQFeed
Trading: Bund Future
Posts: 277 since Aug 2011
Thanks Given: 100
Thanks Received: 311


toshiro View Post
ok, so practically how would you trade bonds? is it so immediate like stocks and it moove each day or do you wait 1x a month for the interest rates to change and you take a bet on these changes and the rest of the time, you have "nothing" to do?

Why do you want to trade bonds? Usually you invest in bonds to earn the interest. Not much these days. And I'd be reluctant to invest now, rates will go up. But nobody knows when.

To really trade bonds you need access to a bond market. Eurex bond market has a minimum order size of 1 mio €. One bond will cost you about 145k € for a notional value of 100k €. German 10-Yr are available in sizes down to 100 €. But these sizes are suitable for investing only. I do not know the minimum size for the markets offered by IB for US treasuries, please lookup at their website.

Poor men's alternative to trading bonds is trading bond futures. But since you label yourself as beginner I strictly advice against it.

If you want to ignore my advice start with Schatz (Future on 2-Yr Notes). Overnight margin is 500 € with IB, one tick is worth 5 € and it moves slowly. Just be careful.

Follow me on Twitter Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)
Nikopol
Bogota
 
Posts: 13 since Aug 2012
Thanks Given: 3
Thanks Received: 4


And be careful, If interest rates go up, your bond will loss money, maybe you have studied a little bit since your first inquire and now you now about the accrued interest and the price/yield relationship. (as interest rates and Investors capital flowing can move a lot bond markets, there are times where bonds can generate returns similar to those expected in stocks, but keep in mind commissions, fees fees banks....)

Reply With Quote
Thanked by:




Last Updated on April 7, 2014


© 2024 NexusFi™, s.a., All Rights Reserved.
Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama City, Panama, Ph: +507 833-9432 (Panama and Intl), +1 888-312-3001 (USA and Canada)
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice. There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
About Us - Contact Us - Site Rules, Acceptable Use, and Terms and Conditions - Privacy Policy - Downloads - Top
no new posts