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How much money would you start trading with?


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How much money would you start trading with?

  #11 (permalink)
 trepidation 
San Jose, California
 
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Raccoon View Post
What's a good ballpark figure for initial account funding under these conditions:

• trading ES mini, intra-day
• taking loss at around 2 points, with cutoff at 4
• making up to 8-12 round trip trades
• trading single contract

Also, suppose the strategy is profitable, at what point (in account balance terms) would you feel comfortable/margin requirements would allow adding another contract to the mix (trading 2 contracts)?

Honestly, my advice is to start with 200 dollars and trade 1 /mes live until you blow up. S&P is a completely different beast from forex.

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  #12 (permalink)
 f1p0pt10ns 
Rochester, NY USA
 
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matthew28 View Post
I remember reading/hearing an interview with Michael Patak at Topstep Trader explaining their account structure fr their financing tests. The account they call a $30,000 account allows a maximum of three contracts to be traded, the $50,000, 5 contracts. That's because they believe people should trade one contract only for each $10,000 in their account

I'm in one of their combines now and the only (as of now) issue I have with TST is (my) perceived contradiction between them saying all their rules are "risk" related yet the trailing drawdown is so tight you have to violate per trade risk management rules by nearly 2x. They're in a win win business for themselves. Many people will shell out thousands for the monthly payment and never pass and those who do pass have the potential to return them 20%. I believe they can open up the trailing drawdown without significantly increasing their exposure given the number of monthly contributions they receive. My guess is many people who pass the combine withdraw and close their accounts as fast possible given this obvious limitation and the fact they deem you a "professional" when that couldn't be further from the truth. With that being said I do believe $8-10k per contract is a reasonable balance to start with.

f1p

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  #13 (permalink)
 
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 SMCJB 
Houston TX
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Raccoon View Post
What's a good ballpark figure for initial account funding under these conditions:

• trading ES mini, intra-day
• taking loss at around 2 points, with cutoff at 4
• making up to 8-12 round trip trades
• trading single contract

Also, suppose the strategy is profitable, at what point (in account balance terms) would you feel comfortable/margin requirements would allow adding another contract to the mix (trading 2 contracts)?

All depends what Percentage Risk of Ruin you are comfortable with. The lower that percentage is the greater the amount of money you will need.

This is actually very simple to model, the chart below is something I quickly put together in excel. Obviously 250 simulations isn't enough but you should get the picture. With a 55% win rate, after a 100 trades this says you have a 25% chance of being ruined, with ruined defined as having had 10 more losing trades than winning trades. With a little more effort you could expand this to actually calculate your actual PnL rather than track winners/losers. All you would need is the average and standard deviation of your trades and replace win/loss (+1/-1) with the expected outcome.

And that completes my early Saturday morning 'Math Fix'!


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  #14 (permalink)
 
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 SMCJB 
Houston TX
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SMCJB View Post
And that completes my early Saturday morning 'Math Fix'!

And for Sunday's 'Math Fix' I first created a Pokemon Logic Problem for one of my kids....



Then I built a quick Monte Carlo/Risk of Ruin spreadsheet. The spreadsheet calculates 500 simulations of 100 trades. The two illustrations show the impact of starting account size of a theoretical trading system with an average trade PnL of $500 and Standard Deviation of $1500. Notice how better the starting account size of $10k is than $5k. This is driven by the much lower number of simulations that get 'ruined'.



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  #15 (permalink)
Glakt
Frankfurt, Germany
 
Posts: 6 since Nov 2020
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Hi @SMCJB,

Thanks a lot for the info from your Monte Carlo/Risk of Ruin spreadsheet. It is superb and extremely useful. It’s exactly what I’m trying to build, but I’m not well versed in Monte Carlo and Risk of Ruin calculations. Would you mind sharing your spreadsheet, please?

Thanks again for the info you posted!

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  #16 (permalink)
 
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 SMCJB 
Houston TX
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Glakt View Post
Would you mind sharing your spreadsheet, please?

Sent

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  #17 (permalink)
Glakt
Frankfurt, Germany
 
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SMCJB View Post
Sent

Thanks a lot!

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  #18 (permalink)
elevytrading
FL/USA
 
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SMCJB View Post
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Would you also please share this with me? I'm currently working out my risk management parameters and this could really help.

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  #19 (permalink)
Glakt
Frankfurt, Germany
 
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SMCJB View Post
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Hi @SMCJB,

I'm very sorry to bother you again.

Unfortunately, I can't download the file you sent me because I'm not an Elite member. Would you mind sharing the file in this thread, please?

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  #20 (permalink)
Tick CounterSteve
Melbourne
 
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The smallest I would start trading 1 ES contract with a 2pt stop would be $5k but I would like more. The big question is how disciplined are you? Are you going to move your stops? Are you going to have your stop trailing close behind?

Why not just trade 5 MES and start at half the size, yes commissions will bite into your profit but you would get comfortable and be able to size up once you have shown to be profitable

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