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The cost of getting started scalping futures
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The cost of getting started scalping futures

  #1 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Munich Germany
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: Emini ES
 
Posts: 23 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 32 given, 9 received

The cost of getting started scalping futures

I come from the Forex world and have only recently started to look into trading Futures.
I'd be interested in supplementing my Forex day trading with scalping Futures via DOM.

I am kind of shocked at what seems to be the cost of a setup to get started here compared to FX.
  • NinjaTrader Lifetime License: ~1000$
  • Jigsaw DOM Addon: ~400$
  • Jigsaw Live Trading ~50$ / month
  • Datafeed Kinetick: ~50$ / month
  • Comissions: ~4$ / RT / contract for ES

Am I missing something or is it really this expensive?
Cheers,
Tom

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  #2 (permalink)
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  #3 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Germany
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: Other
Favorite Futures: ES, YM, 6E
 
Posts: 2,394 since Feb 2013
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If your definition of scalping is carving out some points (i.e. you are entering positions
with ex ante targets below 1/3 to 1/2 of the average daily range), your entry calculation
is in a realistic range - IT and slippage/unfilled limit orders aside. The RT and software costs
depend heavily on your number of traded contracts and the broker that you choose.

If your definition of scalping is cutting some ticks out of small moves within e.g. the
average daily noise of the ES, you are regularly competing with HFT systems. You normally
can add multiples of your costs e.g. for collocation and (semi-)automated trading (or just get
eaten alive trying to enter this fight manually).

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  #4 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Munich Germany
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: Emini ES
 
Posts: 23 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 32 given, 9 received

Thanks for your reply choke, I appreciate it!

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  #5 (permalink)
Market Wizard
London UK
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,386 since Sep 2015
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TradingTom View Post
I come from the Forex world and have only recently started to look into trading Futures.
I'd be interested in supplementing my Forex day trading with scalping Futures via DOM.

I am kind of shocked at what seems to be the cost of a setup to get started here compared to FX.
  • NinjaTrader Lifetime License: ~1000$
    NinjaTrader can be also used for free - you don't necessarily need a license.
  • Jigsaw DOM Addon: ~400$
  • Jigsaw Live Trading ~50$ / month
    While I do have Jigsaw, I don't use that specific arrangement, I only pay connection fees to my broker, see below
  • Datafeed Kinetick: ~50$ / month
    The fee for data connection to the CME exchanges if you are not a professional is 15 USD per month, this is what I pay
  • Comissions: ~4$ / RT / contract for ES
    The commission costs quoted seems high - if you shop around you can find it cheaper - mine is nearly half of what you have.

Am I missing something or is it really this expensive?
Cheers,
Tom

Just to put more context around the figures you quoted, I have put some replies above in bold


Last edited by xplorer; January 16th, 2017 at 09:25 AM.
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  #6 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Munich Germany
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: Emini ES
 
Posts: 23 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 32 given, 9 received

Thanks for your input!
So you are using Jigsaw with the free NinjaTrader for your analysis and place your orders over another platform with your broker, if I understand you correctly?
Do you use the same data feed for both? Can you react quickly enough if you're working 2 different platforms simultaneously?

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  #7 (permalink)
Market Wizard
London UK
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,386 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 4,809 given, 3,352 received
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TradingTom View Post
Thanks for your input!
So you are using Jigsaw with the free NinjaTrader for your analysis and place your orders over another platform with your broker, if I understand you correctly?
Do you use the same data feed for both? Can you react quickly enough if you're working 2 different platforms simultaneously?

Yes, correct. I use NT/Jigsaw for charting/analysis mainly and then my execution platform is CQG.

Unfortunately I can't use the same data feed and I have to pay for 2 different data feeds

As for reaction times, yes, it's a matter of reacting quickly especially at the beginning when micromanaging a position. What I do on occasion is putting the Jigsaw DOM side by side to the CQG DOM.

Hope this helps.

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  #8 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
Munich Germany
 
Futures Experience: None
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: Emini ES
 
Posts: 23 since Jan 2017
Thanks: 32 given, 9 received

It does thanks!
One more question though about the 2 feeds. Are they always in sync? Did you ever have any problems with this setup because of using 2 platforms and 2 feeds?

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  #9 (permalink)
Market Wizard
London UK
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: CQG
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
xplorer's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,386 since Sep 2015
Thanks: 4,809 given, 3,352 received
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TradingTom View Post
It does thanks!
One more question though about the 2 feeds. Are they always in sync? Did you ever have any problems with this setup because of using 2 platforms and 2 feeds?

Yes, they are and must be always in sync. CQG generally is a faster platform than NT so you may see a change happening on that platform a fraction of a second before you see it on NT, but the general principle is they are in sync.

When they aren't, it means there is a data/connection issue.

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  #10 (permalink)
Elite Member
Canada
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader & Jigsaw
Broker/Data: Rithmic
Favorite Futures: ZB FESX
 
Posts: 75 since Dec 2016
Thanks: 56 given, 33 received


Idea:
1) use free ninjatrader
2) split cost of jigsaw with a friend (2 keys for $400)
3) don't pay the $50 a month for the jigsaw thing. You can very easily just keep the ninja dom behind your jigsaw dom on your screen. Is it really a necessity to be able to execute orders from jigsaw?
4) trade something with great commission/tick value ratio, ie UB ZB.


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