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Do we have no chance?
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Do we have no chance?

  #11 (permalink)
Elite Member
Saratoga, NY USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: CL, GC
 
Posts: 377 since Aug 2010
Thanks: 141 given, 790 received

RE: Do we have a chance..??

For what it's worth....

Yes the lil guy / gal can make a success of trading....
Just recently passed a TST Combine and going to phase II next week.
Just don't get caught up in lagging indicators to tell you when to Buy / Sell

Support / Resistance is KING !!!


Mike S.

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  #12 (permalink)
Elite Member
Toronto , Ontario, Canada
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart, SC
Favorite Futures: Emini ES, CL, USD/CAD
 
Posts: 288 since Jun 2016
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bobwest View Post
As has already been said, the algos are operating on a much shorter time horizon than any retail trader. Basically, they are going to be irrelevant to you unless you are fool enough to try their game, which is ultra-short-term.

Their principal effect on you is likely to be just increased liquidity (someone being willing to take the other side of your trade).

The story that "the big boys" are manipulating the market to the detriment of the "little guys" has been around for many decades (or centuries? .) It did not start with the current "big boy" villains.

I think that, realistically, it is an excuse-making thing, or a way to explain away losses. That the big boys are manipulating the market, or "took out my stop" (as if they knew about or cared about some guy's 1-contact trade) is sort of a psychological comfort: it isn't my fault, "They" did it.

Just stop worrying about any and all of this. (Not that it will go away -- whatever the next technological change in the market is, it will bring up the same kinds of stories.) Paranoia is fun.

Bob.

Ah okay makes sense, thanks Bob.

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  #13 (permalink)
Elite Member
Saratoga, NY USA
 
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Platform: NinjaTrader
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Your edge?


Noob

What is your trading style / edge and how long U been trading...

Mike S

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  #14 (permalink)
Elite Member
Toronto , Ontario, Canada
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
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msull35706 View Post
Noob

What is your trading style / edge and how long U been trading...

Mike S

Hey Mike,

At the moment, I don't have any trading style / edge. I am in the process of developing one, and thereby I have no trading experience as well. I am still very new to this whole trading market and I am beginning to learn more and more by the day. Hoping to start analyzing market charts by next month or two.

At the moment I am trying to study and learn the basics and fundamentals so that I can understand what's going on when I start looking at the market (preferably ES, 6E, M6E, YM, CL). While I don't intend to trade in these markets all at once, I plan to analyze them all on a weekly basis.


Best,

John

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  #15 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Favorite Futures: CL, GC
 
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noobforlyfe View Post
Hey Mike,

At the moment, I don't have any trading style / edge. I am in the process of developing one, and thereby I have no trading experience as well. I am still very new to this whole trading market and I am beginning to learn more and more by the day. Hoping to start analyzing market charts by next month or two.

At the moment I am trying to study and learn the basics and fundamentals so that I can understand what's going on when I start looking at the market (preferably ES, 6E, M6E, YM, CL). While I don't intend to trade in these markets all at once, I plan to analyze them all on a weekly basis.


Best,

John

John

Best of luck and keep the community posted on your progress.
I'm looking to your progress.

Mike S

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  #16 (permalink)
Elite Member
Winnipeg, Canada
 
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Even if you operate on a shorter time frame you can still play the game. As already mentioned HFT is more about market making and profiting by providing liquidity (this is how the scalpers on the floor used to operate). But you can still scalp today it just has to be done differently and with a more directional mindset.

Electronic markets have brought different kinds players in the game but the rules are still the same when it comes to how prices move up and down. So effectively we just have a different type/behaviour of price action, one that can still be read and understood albeit often more difficult. So unless you want to get into the market making side of business I wouldn't worry about HFTs, although its still important to understand their effect on the market.

IMO Trading success boils down more to how you handle yourself and your risk, not what computers are doing.

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  #17 (permalink)
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Beaverton, Canada
 
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msull35706 View Post
For what it's worth....

Yes the lil guy / gal can make a success of trading....
Just recently passed a TST Combine and going to phase II next week.
Just don't get caught up in lagging indicators to tell you when to Buy / Sell

Support / Resistance is KING !!!


Mike S.

@msull35706, congrats Mike, hope you do well with this next phase.

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  #18 (permalink)
Elite Member
Saratoga, NY USA
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: CL, GC
 
Posts: 377 since Aug 2010
Thanks: 141 given, 790 received

Thx Sk8ter

Again, trading is a marathon, not a sprint.
Will keep ya posted on FTP [ Funded Trader Prep ] for TST Combine.

But the main thing is I feel WE, the Retail traders, can do well over time in these markets of HFT activity
if you learn the language of chart reading Price Action.

I scaled back on alot on my charts and see improvements.

Time will ultimately tell

Happy 4th...
Happy Canada Day


Mike S

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  #19 (permalink)
Trading for Fun
Boston, MA
 
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noobforlyfe View Post
Hello,

I just wanted to ask a question regarding our chances against HFT and ALGO type of trading. How easily can these trading styles be manipulated in the following markets: CL, ES, M6E, YM?

Let it be stated, that I am very new to this trading market and I just want to understand our chances(right now and going into the future) against big companies with 100x more capital than me who use HFT and algorithmic trading softwares/ mechanisms.

Do individual traders like me have a chance looking into the next 5-10 years given our rapid advancement in automation and technology? Or is it just a game of tug of war amongst multiple big companies?

Best,

John

The point here is that they are operating on a completely different time frame than you or me. They are analyzing down to the milliseconds. We are analyzing at least several minute time frames. So no, there is nothing to fear. It's like saying that day traders have access to more information and therefore are far more competitive than long term buy and hold investors who are hanging on to positions for months or years. Of course that's not true. Same thing with HFT vs. discretionary intraday trading. Two completely different methods, two completely different sets of players and competition. These guys aren't looking to compete with me and you - we are in another sport entirely. They are looking to take on the guys playing the same game as them.

On a side note, we should be very happy that they are doing their thing, because liquidity has increased enormously, and executing costs are lower. You can theoretically trade larger sizes than ever before because of these guys.


Last edited by mangolassi; July 4th, 2016 at 01:04 PM.
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  #20 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
New York
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
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Posts: 43 since Dec 2013
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Donate 1/2 of your allocated trading capital to a worthwhile cause...take the other half and walk away.
Oh and for obvious reasons don't listen to brokers who suggest that you can make it.

If you still want to stick around...prepare to be "feed" for a few years and IF you make it consider the following before you decide what to study.

Nearly every trader has the market moving a few ticks against their entry 90% of the time before it continues in the intended trade direction even of the winning trades...who's taking that $? Your losing trades are extra bonus

HFT isn't on a different time frame,they're in all time frames...just a different thought process.

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