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Intro, just discovered Emini trading, loving it
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Intro, just discovered Emini trading, loving it

  #21 (permalink)
Trading for Profit
Houston, TX
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
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Croni View Post
Excellent advice, in fact I learnt stuff and lost some money making mistakes that I could have made first on SIM without losing the money. I might actually switch gears and doing some SIM screen time before going back live.

I dont work for this company but this will bring you as close to trading cash as anything without having anything but a small premium at risk - http://www.topsteptrader.com. I find it much better than trading SIM and much safer than trading cash and it does "make it real" enough. If you think their trading criteria (restrictions etc) align with your trading method, it may not be a bad place to start to prove yourself.

If you have any questions about them, we have a Q&A thread right here at futures.io (formerly BMT): https://futures.io/vendors-product-reviews/25776-topsteptrader-s-michael-patak-president-ask-me-anything-ask-me-anything.html

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  #22 (permalink)
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tturner86 View Post
Read these, re-write them for you, print and put on wall next to your computer.

10 Laws of Trading
1 - Trade Small. Large wins require large exposure. Don't take large risk until your build a buffer.
2 - When in doubt, Get Out! Deal with reality. If it doesn't perform, exit trade immediately!
3 - Learn the difference between gambling and trading. No overnights, no positions before market opens, no positions before major market news.
4 - Don't add to losers. Cost Averaging is BS and will kill you. If you want out, get out. Scale into winners.
5 - DON'T OVERTRADE. Trade more only as you get experience and only if you are winning. Never trade more to make up for losses. Limit number of trades per day. (Currently setting 2 trades daily for first week of live trading.)
6 - You must use stop losses. - NEVER MOVE STOP AGAINST YOU. STOP ONLY MOVES FORWARD TO REDUCE RISK / LOCK IN PROFIT.
7 - Have a daily loss limit. 1-2% risk capital. Have a daily profit limit. Also 1-2%.
8 - Be logical, not emotional. Do not get angry, do not get excited.
9 - Do not trade if their are computer problems, market problems, severe weather or external forces that will distract you from your trading (kids).
10 -Be disciplined. Follow your plan daily.

Old Korean Trading Principal
DON'T LOSE MONEY
If you do lose money, lose very little money.

Your list seeks to protect the trader to a degree which I think is counter-productive. Always stops; always loss limits; small size; never in the market around open, overnight, or news; limit profits; exit if the market moves against you; never add to a trade in the red, regardless of the circumstance. It might ensure a slow death, but it will not yield much profit either!

Here is another perspective. Slightly tongue-in-cheek, but the point is simply this: your laws are not laws at all, but simply opinions, just as mine are below. Different things work better for different traders, so instead of accepting one way as law, why not consider other possibilities?



1) Trade large when you're trading well and on a roll. Maximize gains. Trade small when unsure or trading poorly.

2) Get out if the potential for performing is not there. A trade that doesn't perform initially is not necessarily a bad trade. True, when you get that genuine feeling that "it's not working," it's time to get out. But if the trade goes against you a little, and if it takes a little while, that doesn't mean you should panic and exit without thinking.

3) Some of the best opportunities in the market are overnight, around news, and before the open.

4) Logical averaging is a great way to not get shaken out of the market when the premise of the trade is still good. It's also a great way to lose your ass, and should only be done with care, however.

5) Giving up when you're down is sometimes the smart move--but often the better move is to do a mental refresh, become more objective, and then start with a fresh perspective.

6) Stops are for schmucks.

7) A daily loss limit may be a good idea if one cannot objectively tell when it's time to quit, but a daily profit limit seeks the safe way out, and guarantees you never reach your potential.

8) Emotions are largely harmful in trading, in that they affect one's objectivity usually. However, emotions can be a powerful tool that, if harnessed, can be an asset far greater than any other to the trader. It can tell him when to press harder and when to back off, for example.

9) Be disciplined. Be willing to deviate drastically from your plan, if you have a good reason for doing so.

As for your Korean Trading Principle, it is well intended, but how about this one:
TRADE TO WIN, EVEN IF IT MEANS LOSING SOMETIMES

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  #23 (permalink)
Elite Member
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josh View Post
Your list seeks to protect the trader to a degree which I think is counter-productive. Always stops; always loss limits; small size; never in the market around open, overnight, or news; limit profits; exit if the market moves against you; never add to a trade in the red, regardless of the circumstance. It might ensure a slow death, but it will not yield much profit either!

Here is another perspective. Slightly tongue-in-cheek, but the point is simply this: your laws are not laws at all, but simply opinions, just as mine are below. Different things work better for different traders, so instead of accepting one way as law, why not consider other possibilities?



1) Trade large when you're trading well and on a roll. Maximize gains. Trade small when unsure or trading poorly.

2) Get out if the potential for performing is not there. A trade that doesn't perform initially is not necessarily a bad trade. True, when you get that genuine feeling that "it's not working," it's time to get out. But if the trade goes against you a little, and if it takes a little while, that doesn't mean you should panic and exit without thinking.

3) Some of the best opportunities in the market are overnight, around news, and before the open.

4) Logical averaging is a great way to not get shaken out of the market when the premise of the trade is still good. It's also a great way to lose your ass, and should only be done with care, however.

5) Giving up when you're down is sometimes the smart move--but often the better move is to do a mental refresh, become more objective, and then start with a fresh perspective.

6) Stops are for schmucks.

7) A daily loss limit may be a good idea if one cannot objectively tell when it's time to quit, but a daily profit limit seeks the safe way out, and guarantees you never reach your potential.

8) Emotions are largely harmful in trading, in that they affect one's objectivity usually. However, emotions can be a powerful tool that, if harnessed, can be an asset far greater than any other to the trader. It can tell him when to press harder and when to back off, for example.

9) Be disciplined. Be willing to deviate drastically from your plan, if you have a good reason for doing so.

As for your Korean Trading Principle, it is well intended, but how about this one:
TRADE TO WIN, EVEN IF IT MEANS LOSING SOMETIMES

Re-read the first sentence, I clearly state to rewrite them for yourself. These are not laws set in stone for everyone, but a way for a novice trader to build a foundation.

Also, I never said to get out if the trade goes against you. Get out of the trade if it doesn't preform. You may enter on a breakout and then have a pullback to the ema or support. Just cause you have the pullback doesn't mean the trade isn't preforming.

Your list is great for a moderate trader, but for someone who is just starting and trading live for the first week. It is better to limit exposure and protect capital as long as possible. Once they gain confidence and the ability to execute then they can expand how the trade.


Last edited by tturner86; February 3rd, 2014 at 08:26 PM.
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  #24 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
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danielk View Post
You've gotten some very sound advice, but seem determined to try the real deal without much practice. I'm not gonna tell you it cant be done, but the odds are stacked very badly against you. And this is after all a probabilities game. You're already willingly and knowingly rolling the dice when you know its against all common sense.

Losing money is not a good way to learn trading. You can chalk it up to "tuition fees" like so many before you, but you'd be better off getting an elite membership and reading what successful guys had to endour before you. What you are doing seems reckless and unnecessary, but primarily you risk building negative assosiations to trading and taking losses. Consider how much time you could be wasting chasing the wrong questions/answers, and the amount of time those errors might cost you once you have to unlearn them.

Anyway Start with M6E, NQ, or something similar. If you wont practice patience then i hope at least you'll practice discipline by setting a sensible max level you are willing to lose before switching to SIM.

Maybe check out tturners journal, https://futures.io/trading-journals/30151-2014-price-action-trading.html

I know which rookie i would be placing my bets on...

None the less, best of luck!

What's interesting: One gets opposing advice from experienced people (not only here on the forum). Some say be careful and prepare well, others say go for it, only putting real money on the line will teach you. In fact I heard Big Mike say so in one of the webinars :-)

I started using my plan on market replays now, will pause for a couple of weeks, then go back to live trading.

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  #25 (permalink)
Elite Member
Stavanger, Norway
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
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Sure, both sides could be argued. That said, we're all different, and i have no idea how experienced you are, or your situation. Maybe you've traded stocks for years already? Maybe you're loaded and a few grand loss would'nt even dent your financials? Regardless, i'm guessing whoever suggests to go with real money believes you have a certain background/experience that will allow you to succeed.

There is most definitely a difference between sim and live trading. So yes, i'd say its important not to linger in eternal SIM mode for too long. But the most sensible approach in my opinion is: start SIM, become comfortable and build confidence in your actions and platform. Do that at least until you've had a few "holy shit what the hell went wrong" kind of days- and how you react/feel on those days can also prove critical.

Once confident, go live, but small- spot fx, m6e, NQ and the likes allow you to get your feet wet without risking more than you have to. Make it all about the ticks, forget about the money aspect of it. On the other hand if you want a good scare, try gold, silver, FDAX and perhaps even ZB bonds... spend a week or two on these markets on SIM and they should show you how treacherous the markets can be

I sound like a broken record here. Sorry

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  #26 (permalink)
Elite Member
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Croni View Post
What's interesting: One gets opposing advice from experienced people (not only here on the forum). Some say be careful and prepare well, others say go for it, only putting real money on the line will teach you. In fact I heard Big Mike say so in one of the webinars :-)

I started using my plan on market replays now, will pause for a couple of weeks, then go back to live trading.

From the man Mike himself: https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/1415-big-mike-s-day-trading-method-advice-39.html#post32602

Also checkout: https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/29942-how-do-i-not-take-losses-personally.html

And: https://futures.io/psychology-money-management/11890-how-many-blew-up-account-before-becoming-successful-trader.html

You are getting conflicting views because there is no right answer for everyone. But luckily most of the people here at futures.io (formerly BMT) are only trying to be honest with you and help you.

On the going live piece just remember to do it as small as possible to protect your capital. Also you could decide in the beginning to trade only one or two days live a week and the rest sim, or whatever variation works for you. That way you get your feet wet but again limit exposure.

Then once you get your bearings and are able to trade well you can expand your trading, increase your size and start to do well.

One last thing: A trader's tool is the money in his account, if you lose your money you lose your tools and cannot trade. So do the best to protect your tools and live to trade another day (or even later in the same day!).

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  #27 (permalink)
Market Wizard
Sarasota FL
 
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Chrismind View Post
SIM has a way of making people think they're going to be rich in a few months. There is no pressure, and no skin in the game. Have you heard of TopStepTrader? I can't recommend them enough. It is a cheap way to trade, but feel the real pressure of live trading.


LogicalTrader View Post
I dont work for this company but this will bring you as close to trading cash as anything without having anything but a small premium at risk - http://www.topsteptrader.com. I find it much better than trading SIM and much safer than trading cash and it does "make it real" enough. If you think their trading criteria (restrictions etc) align with your trading method, it may not be a bad place to start to prove yourself.

If you have any questions about them, we have a Q&A thread right here at futures.io (formerly BMT): https://futures.io/vendors-product-reviews/25776-topsteptrader-s-michael-patak-president-ask-me-anything-ask-me-anything.html

Looks like I'll be the third one to suggest the TopstepTrader Combine here.

I'm not connected with them either, although I have done a few Combines with them. The "Combine" is named after the NFL Combine, where rookies hoping to be drafted go through tests for the football scouts. With TsT, they are looking to see whether they would want to take you on as a trader trading their capital.

It's sim but it has an edginess to it.

You put up a small deposit (it can be under $200), trade using one of their platforms for 10 or 20 days; if you have met all the loss-control metrics and have managed to end with at least a positive profit, you get the deposit back. If you also meet the profit target (which is not that easy), they will offer to take you on as a funded trader. If you don't meet the loss criteria and/or don't finish positive, you lose the deposit.

It's more like real trading than normal sim, because you have something at stake and someone besides you is holding you accountable. It's like normal sim because you aren't going to lose big money.

Not everyone likes their rules; they don't care how you trade so long as you hit their loss and profit numbers, but they are ex-pit traders and have very tight loss-control rules, probably from that experience. But a lot of people from futures.io (formerly BMT) have tried it, and some have gotten funded. It is useful and legit.

@Big Mike has said that the real point is not being funded, but it's the discipline, and he's right on that, imo.

So, I suggest taking a look, and seeing if it sounds worthwhile to you. Their FAQ is here: Help & Feedback Center

(Try a small-money, 20-trading-day Combine at first; you'll learn a lot in that month of trading.)

Bob.

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  #28 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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hoi @Croni,

so I guess I'm the first one to tell you to avoid that topstep trader combine

some of the rules are ridiculous at best and only serve one purpose. you would be better off following the 10 "laws" by @tturner86.
should also mention, I never took a combine, and this is of course all imho.

maybe a good read is here: Top Step Trader? - Page 9

uf au faeu vieu glueck u muesch nid aus aernscht naeh was hie gschribe wird

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  #29 (permalink)
Market Wizard
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Silvester17 View Post
hoi @Croni,

so I guess I'm the first one to tell you to avoid that topstep trader combine

some of the rules are ridiculous at best and only serve one purpose.

LOL.

Differences of opinion make everything more interesting....


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  #30 (permalink)
Trading Apprentice
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Silvester17 View Post
uf au faeu vieu glueck u muesch nid aus aernscht naeh was hie gschribe wird

hehe, ghöri doch gärn, d'sprach wo hie inne niemer verschteit ;-)!

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