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Account been approved! Going to have my first day of tradingthis week LA
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Account been approved! Going to have my first day of tradingthis week LA

  #91 (permalink)
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budfox View Post
I don't understand how I can focus on NOT LOSING money without NOT making money. Are you trying to say focus on risk? I limit my risk to 1.25 points (based on the average MAE over the past few weeks).

Ok how long do you suggest I trade micros for? (when will I be ready to trade regular contracts)....

I dont mind being a white belt for a while before becoming a black belt.

Mr. Fox,

I've been reading this thread with a sense of incredulity and I've debated about writing you. I'm not 100% sure this is the right thing to do. Some might say I'm wasting my time. But passion won out over logic and I gave in.

I recognize myself in you...you are more outspoken about it than I was but the attitude is the same. You don't really hear what people are saying to you. You should listen to what is being said....there is experience and integrity speaking to you from many of the posters but you are ignoring this to focus on the minor details of trading.

But let me address your self professed risk management.

Yes indeed, you are 100% unequivocally supposed to focus on NOT LOSING money without NOT making money. Do this in sim for as long as you must.

There are 5 stages:

1. Lose money without knowing why....this is you right now.
2. Lose money but know why. This is what focusing on not losing money will teach you.
3. Break Even. You know why you lose but haven't quite figured out the winning side of it yet. You finally control risk well.
4. Aha moment. You realize you actually have a quantifiable edge by looking at the same chart for a long time. And you understand the truth about trading. Its very simple but you need to find it for yourself. There's a reason they call it the holy grail. You must search for it yourself and at this point I will give you clue....its not where you think it is. Go look in the mirror. And watch the movie KungFu Panda. There is a world of trading wisdom there.
5. You win. Not because you are some great trader or have some secret sauce, but because you've learned to let the market speak to you, you are in harmony with what its trying to do and you go along for the ride. And the holy grail is yours.....this might take years...or it might take months. Much depends on how quickly you listen.

Next. Just because you think you are controlling risk with a 1.25 point stop is irrelevant and useless. Its arbitrary and capricious to assume your risk is controlled with a fixed stop of some random amount. ESPECIALLY if the trade requires a 3 point or 5 point stop. In trading its called death by a thousand cuts. And trust me, you will die that death if you think a 1.25 stop will "protect" you. Once you know why you lose money, then you can think about using a fixed stop of 1.25 even though a 3 point one might be better. I often use a 10 or 15 tick stop when I know darn well I need a 30 tick stop. But I know the reasons I need that larger stop and I know the reasons I can use a smaller one even though I should have a larger one. You don't seem to know when a larger one is necessary and when its not.

Now, go live...but not until you can honestly look yourself in the mirror and know you are not gambling and when I say gambling, I mean trading irrationally with no edge or understanding of risk control. And when you do go live, trade micros in FOREX until you can double that account while taking appropriate risk. Then move to futures or just scale up the lots in forex.

If you are ready to listen instead of talking all the time, I am sure there are people here that would be willing to share privately. But constantly asking people how long they were on sim is silly. Who cares? Some were days and some were years. Does it matter?. You go live when you're ready. This is not a race. Its a journey of self discovery and some end up realizing they don't like what they see in the mirror.

Sincerely,

Gordon Gecko

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #92 (permalink)
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I have to do this!!!


PandaWarrior View Post
Mr. Fox,

I've been reading this thread with a sense of incredulity and I've debated about writing you. I'm not 100% sure this is the right thing to do. Some might say I'm wasting my time. But passion won out over logic and I gave in.

I recognize myself in you...you are more outspoken about it than I was but the attitude is the same. You don't really hear what people are saying to you. You should listen to what is being said....there is experience and integrity speaking to you from many of the posters but you are ignoring this to focus on the minor details of trading.

But let me address your self professed risk management.

Yes indeed, you are 100% unequivocally supposed to focus on NOT LOSING money without NOT making money. Do this in sim for as long as you must.

There are 5 stages:

1. Lose money without knowing why....this is you right now.
2. Lose money but know why. This is what focusing on not losing money will teach you.
3. Break Even. You know why you lose but haven't quite figured out the winning side of it yet. You finally control risk well.
4. Aha moment. You realize you actually have a quantifiable edge by looking at the same chart for a long time. And you understand the truth about trading. Its very simple but you need to find it for yourself. There's a reason they call it the holy grail. You must search for it yourself and at this point I will give you clue....its not where you think it is. Go look in the mirror. And watch the movie KungFu Panda. There is a world of trading wisdom there.
5. You win. Not because you are some great trader or have some secret sauce, but because you've learned to let the market speak to you, you are in harmony with what its trying to do and you go along for the ride. And the holy grail is yours.....this might take years...or it might take months. Much depends on how quickly you listen.

Next. Just because you think you are controlling risk with a 1.25 point stop is irrelevant and useless. Its arbitrary and capricious to assume your risk is controlled with a fixed stop of some random amount. ESPECIALLY if the trade requires a 3 point or 5 point stop. In trading its called death by a thousand cuts. And trust me, you will die that death if you think a 1.25 stop will "protect" you. Once you know why you lose money, then you can think about using a fixed stop of 1.25 even though a 3 point one might be better. I often use a 10 or 15 tick stop when I know darn well I need a 30 tick stop. But I know the reasons I need that larger stop and I know the reasons I can use a smaller one even though I should have a larger one. You don't seem to know when a larger one is necessary and when its not.

Now, go live...but not until you can honestly look yourself in the mirror and know you are not gambling and when I say gambling, I mean trading irrationally with no edge or understanding of risk control. And when you do go live, trade micros in FOREX until you can double that account while taking appropriate risk. Then move to futures or just scale up the lots in forex.

If you are ready to listen instead of talking all the time, I am sure there are people here that would be willing to share privately. But constantly asking people how long they were on sim is silly. Who cares? Some were days and some were years. Does it matter?. You go live when you're ready. This is not a race. Its a journey of self discovery and some end up realizing they don't like what they see in the mirror.

Sincerely,

Gordon Gecko


Trying to figure out what you are saying:

1.you want me to be in phase 3? break even? so have my limit at the same price I bought the contract? b/c that will be the only way to not lose and not make any money.

2. Why Forex? How would trading forex be different to trading the ES?

3. I DO KNOW why I am losing...I made a list of all my losing trades...watched the videos....made a list of the reasons I I lost. (never used the timed stop properly, calculated my own A & C values instead of using the ones Fisher gave us)

4. 1.25 is not arbitrarily. every trade for the past two months for every day has been manually backtested and the MAE noted. The average MAE for every trade based on specific, consistent requirements is aorund 0.75.

4.1 I do focus on risk, I always ask "What can go wrong?, What can go wrong? " Worse case scenario? what is the worst case scenario....price goes down and hits my stop (as soon as price nears my stop I take my fingers off the mouse so I can't move it down)

5. When you going to hook me up with Adrien


I hope my tone isn't construed as antagonistic>>>> Big Mike's Trading is the University, or place where I come to learn. In trading there is no professor you can go to after class to get help - you have to ask strangers on the internet.

Please keep replying everyone I valueyour advice.

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  #93 (permalink)
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budfox View Post
Trying to figure out what you are saying:

1.you want me to be in phase 3? break even? so have my limit at the same price I bought the contract? b/c that will be the only way to not lose and not make any money.

2. Why Forex? How would trading forex be different to trading the ES?

3. I DO KNOW why I am losing...I made a list of all my losing trades...watched the videos....made a list of the reasons I I lost. (never used the timed stop properly, calculated my own A & C values instead of using the ones Fisher gave us)

4. 1.25 is not arbitrarily. every trade for the past two months for every day has been manually backtested and the MAE noted. The average MAE for every trade based on specific, consistent requirements is aorund 0.75.

4.1 I do focus on risk, I always ask "What can go wrong?, What can go wrong? " Worse case scenario? what is the worst case scenario....price goes down and hits my stop (as soon as price nears my stop I take my fingers off the mouse so I can't move it down)

5. When you going to hook me up with Adrien


I hope my tone isn't construed as antagonistic>>>> Big Mike's Trading is the University, or place where I come to learn. In trading there is no professor you can go to after class to get help - you have to ask strangers on the internet.

Please keep replying everyone I valueyour advice.

Again Mr. Fox you are not listening. However, I will attempt to answer your questions in a format you might be able to understand: Each point below corresponds to yours above.

1. The 5 stages are periods of time. Not a trading method or strategy. example....you lose money for 6 months and don't know why. Your point #4 above is proof you are still in this phase. Stage 3 is also a period of time where you are break even trader...for me this lasted around a year. Can you handle that? I suspect not.

2. I answered the Forex question in my original post but since you missed the point, let attempt to spell it out. Forex allows you to SIZE your trade appropriately which allows you to control risk while taking the trade. EXAMPLE: You have $5000 to trade with and your trading plan and good common sense tells you to risk around 1-2% of your account on each trade. In ES, that means your MAX stop is 4 ticks at the beginning of your trading career. Assuming your first trade is a loser, you now have $4950.0 to trade with and now you are forced to use 1.xxx% of your account, you lose again because you don't know why you are losing....slowly your account is drained....but sometimes you decide 2% is appropriate and you lose that as well.

Before long, common sense and your trade plan tells you that you are risking an ever increasing proportion of your account on each trade. It begins to snowball on itself and before long you've blown six accounts. Forex allows you to size your risk more appropriately. Instead of each tick being worth $12.50, you can make it worth as little as .10 with some brokers. This allows you to learn to trade with real money without worrying about blowing your account out first. Its the baseball equivalent of the minor leagues. I wish I had taken @Big Mike's suggestion to do this at the beginning. I suspect like most traders, you are are not willing to play in the minors for even a day. Everyone wants to go straight to the show. To bad.

3. If this was true, you would be winning and we would not be having this conversation. However I will offer you a clue here. Learn from your losers to be sure....but put together a powerpoint of 50 WINNING Trades. All the nuances need to be listed....What made those trades winners. How did it look at the time of entry, exit, How much time to completion, stops required, etc..... And review that power point slide by slide every day. BURN those trades into your brain. Right now your subconscious knows how to lose. After all you keep studying losing over and over again. Its only doing what you've trained it to do. Now teach your brain how to win. I'd show you mine but you'd start asking the wrong questions again.

4.1 This is the first rational thing you said about trading in the whole thread. Now ask yourself this question. "If the worse case scenario presents itself, is my stop in the correct location? If it is, and its hit, do I have the balls to reverse the trade instead of just taking the stop?" Because here's the deal, if your stop is in the correct place and its hit, that means you were wrong about the overall direction of the market and you need to reverse asap to be on the right side of the market. If you are afraid to reverse, that means your stop was probably in the wrong place to begin with and something inside of you knows it....the market is going your direction, it's just doing it without you.....sucker....

5. I'm not a pimp. Make your own money and hook yourself up.

Advice given but ignored leads to advice no longer given. I suggest instead of asking for more advice, you take some of it thats already been given by me and others.

For instance, over this weekend your action plan might look like this:

Mr. Bud Fox's To Do List:

1. Open a forex account with $500
2. Create a PowerPoint file and begin adding 5 trades per day to it with all notes, examples, indicator settings, etc to the slide. Do this for ten days until Mr. Gecko would be satisfied with my work.
3. Set a goal to learn why I lose money. Example: I will be fully aware of why I lose within 60 days from today.
4. Seek out a mentor. I need to be humble about this. It appears the market is older and wiser than me even though I just graduated from Harvard Business School where they told me I would be the master of the universe when I graduated.
5. Close all my ES charts. Forget about them until I can double my Forex account to $1000.00 WITHOUT adding in more money.
6. Buy one of Brent Steenbargers books. Read it over and over again.
7. Trade forex live on 30 minute charts but only in micro lots. (.10 per tick) Learn to control risk on this chart first. Gradually increase lots once I learn to win. NOT BEFORE.
8. Rent...no buy the movie Kung Fu Panda. Watch it over and over again to figure out what the heck Mr. Gecko is talking about since he wont tell me straight out...damn that guy!

And on that note, have a great weekend.

Good luck kid, you're gonna need it.

Gordon.

P.S. Oops...I forgot something kid....in the signature box of my posts are three VERY important clues to being successful in this game.....I suggest you make learning these inside and out number 9 on your to do list.....

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris

Last edited by PandaWarrior; November 23rd, 2013 at 04:29 PM.
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  #94 (permalink)
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DarkPoolTrading View Post
[*]Learn how the markets work. Dont just dive head first into trying to make a profitable system. Why do markets move? How do different time frames affect the market? Do you notice any repeatable patterns, what is causing them? Markets are fractal, have you observed this for yourself? What is your belief about what drives markets intraday, swing etc?


Trying to figure out "what makes markets move"....my initial answer is peoples perceptions of news events ie. how certain news will influence yellen whether to taper or not.

I think thats whats really driving the markets now.

But to determine whats going on inthe minds of most traders...thats the challenge.

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  #95 (permalink)
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budfox View Post
Trying to figure out "what makes markets move"....my initial answer is peoples perceptions of news events ie. how certain news will influence yellen whether to taper or not.

I think thats whats really driving the markets now.

But to determine whats going on inthe minds of most traders...thats the challenge.

wrong, not news drives market

media and news are just manipulation tool of market operator. that's why public always become loser.

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  #96 (permalink)
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supermht View Post
wrong, not news drives market

media and news are just manipulation tool of market operator. that's why public always become loser.

Ok what does drive it then?

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  #97 (permalink)
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budfox View Post
Ok what does drive it then?

one of driver :

demand and supply

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  #98 (permalink)
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Ill never give up....trading will be my lifelong career.


PandaWarrior View Post

Mr. Bud Fox's To Do List:

1. Open a forex account with $500
2. Create a PowerPoint file and begin adding 5 trades per day to it with all notes, examples, indicator settings, etc to the slide. Do this for ten days until Mr. Gecko would be satisfied with my work.
3. Set a goal to learn why I lose money. Example: I will be fully aware of why I lose within 60 days from today.
4. Seek out a mentor. I need to be humble about this. It appears the market is older and wiser than me even though I just graduated from Harvard Business School where they told me I would be the master of the universe when I graduated.
5. Close all my ES charts. Forget about them until I can double my Forex account to $1000.00 WITHOUT adding in more money.
6. Buy one of Brent Steenbargers books. Read it over and over again.
7. Trade forex live on 30 minute charts but only in micro lots. (.10 per tick) Learn to control risk on this chart first. Gradually increase lots once I learn to win. NOT BEFORE.
8. Rent...no buy the movie Kung Fu Panda. Watch it over and over again to figure out what the heck Mr. Gecko is talking about since he wont tell me straight out...damn that guy!

And on that note, have a great weekend.

Good luck kid, you're gonna need it.

Gordon.

P.S. Oops...I forgot something kid....in the signature box of my posts are three VERY important clues to being successful in this game.....I suggest you make learning these inside and out number 9 on your to do list.....


Alright, which forex instrument should I trade? which one is the most volatile?

I really know nothing about forex......

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  #99 (permalink)
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budfox View Post
Ok what does drive it then?

Mr Fox,

You should think about this instead of asking. Every poster is trying to get you to THINK.

Here are some ideas to help you get started:

Fear

Greed

Supply

Demand

Oops, I gave you the answers....still, think about this for a long time.....then come back and give us an essay about how this affects prices intra day.

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication, Leonardo da Vinci


Most people chose unhappiness over uncertainty, Tim Ferris
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  #100 (permalink)
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budfox View Post
Alright, which forex instrument should I trade? which one is the most volatile?

I really know nothing about forex......

then study it before you trade

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