Take the inexpensive route - Beginners and Introductions | futures io social day trading
futures io futures trading


Take the inexpensive route
Updated: Views / Replies:26,433 / 124
Created: by Jaguar52 Attachments:50

Welcome to futures io.

(If you already have an account, login at the top of the page)

futures io is the largest futures trading community on the planet, with over 90,000 members. At futures io, our goal has always been and always will be to create a friendly, positive, forward-thinking community where members can openly share and discuss everything the world of trading has to offer. The community is one of the friendliest you will find on any subject, with members going out of their way to help others. Some of the primary differences between futures io and other trading sites revolve around the standards of our community. Those standards include a code of conduct for our members, as well as extremely high standards that govern which partners we do business with, and which products or services we recommend to our members.

At futures io, our focus is on quality education. No hype, gimmicks, or secret sauce. The truth is: trading is hard. To succeed, you need to surround yourself with the right support system, educational content, and trading mentors Ė all of which you can find on futures io, utilizing our social trading environment.

With futures io, you can find honest trading reviews on brokers, trading rooms, indicator packages, trading strategies, and much more. Our trading review process is highly moderated to ensure that only genuine users are allowed, so you donít need to worry about fake reviews.

We are fundamentally different than most other trading sites:
  • We are here to help. Just let us know what you need.
  • We work extremely hard to keep things positive in our community.
  • We do not tolerate rude behavior, trolling, or vendors advertising in posts.
  • We firmly believe in and encourage sharing. The holy grail is within you, we can help you find it.
  • We expect our members to participate and become a part of the community. Help yourself by helping others.

You'll need to register in order to view the content of the threads and start contributing to our community.  It's free and simple.

-- Big Mike, Site Administrator

Reply
 50  
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 

Take the inexpensive route

  #71 (permalink)
Membership Temporarily Revoked
Toronto
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra
Broker/Data: MB
Favorite Futures: ES
 
Posts: 313 since Jun 2013
Thanks: 182 given, 58 received

Advice for the first week of trading


Jaguar52 View Post
That statement applies to the change in your head and the change in the fill speed and rate. I see almost no difference. So, ASIDE from the psych and your spot in the queue, almost nothing is different. If you have your trade plan all set and if you are able to follow it consistently, and if that plan is a profitable one in sim, then nothing should change much.... but it does. Realism is that in SIM if price came to within 1 tick of your stop and hovered there more than 1 second, you would most likely have been stopped out. Realism is that if price tapped your limit entry on a pull back, and did not hover on your limit entry price at least a few seconds, most likely you would not have been filled. Realism is that if you had a buy limit in, and price blasted through and filled you most likely you would have been slipped a couple or more ticks on the fill, and this includes the stop exit. So, fills and your psychological reaction to real loss are the main reasons why you will lose 10 or even 15% off the top of your performance on initial trading with real cash risk in the market.
BTW, I also see no way of avoiding the initial performance loss when going to cash after sim qualifying. So, I recommend your sim performance be as high as possible, higher than 70%. I also recommend you stack the deck in your favor by reducing your risk to less than 1/4% per trade by being well funded. You will need room to weather the initial performance loss until you regain control of yourself.
Everyone is different. Maybe it won't happen to you? Just saying that almost guarantees it will.

Hi Jag,

My account as been approved by the clearinghouse, going to have my first trading day of my career sometime this week, I want my first trade ever to be profitable. So scared yet excited at the same time.

https://futures.io/index-futures-trading/28084-click-here-account-been-approved-...-week-la.html#post344736

It would be great if you could give me some advice for my first week, above is the thread I made for it.

Thanks,

BF

Reply With Quote
 
  #72 (permalink)
Elite Member
Singapore
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Ninjatrader
Broker/Data: DDT / Kinetick
Favorite Futures: 6E
 
Posts: 62 since Jun 2013
Thanks: 76 given, 84 received

Hi Jaguar

Hi @Jaguar52,

Great great thread. I have been reading this thread over and over again for inspiration as to your approach to the markets. It has certainly helped me view my trading differently and not be afraid of taking small profits and focusing on consistency.

I have a quick question with regards to managing commissions. By taking such small scalps of the market and with the use of leverage, the commissions will quickly add up. I understand that if you have a positive expectancy, net comms, you should not be concerned about how much you are paying the broker.

In your opinion, is there a maximum % of commision to profit that you would seek to not breach? Ie, if you are paying $4.50 RT, and your target is 4 ticks on 6E, you are actively paying 9% of profits in comms.

Do you recommend working up a positive expectancy for a period of say 6 months and then leasing a seat on the exchange?

Thanks for your post and time.

Reply With Quote
 
  #73 (permalink)
 Vendor: protradered.blogspot.com 
NY + NY/USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures- Rithmic
Favorite Futures: CL, 6E
 
Posts: 236 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 11 given, 1,267 received



strikebackfast View Post
Hi @Jaguar52,

Great great thread. I have been reading this thread over and over again for inspiration as to your approach to the markets. It has certainly helped me view my trading differently and not be afraid of taking small profits and focusing on consistency.

I have a quick question with regards to managing commissions. By taking such small scalps of the market and with the use of leverage, the commissions will quickly add up. I understand that if you have a positive expectancy, net comms, you should not be concerned about how much you are paying the broker.

In your opinion, is there a maximum % of commision to profit that you would seek to not breach? Ie, if you are paying $4.50 RT, and your target is 4 ticks on 6E, you are actively paying 9% of profits in comms.

Do you recommend working up a positive expectancy for a period of say 6 months and then leasing a seat on the exchange?

Thanks for your post and time.

Many traders get stuck on this. So, the price you pay to the broker is 9%. That is the cost of doing business. You have an overhead and you do need to consider this because it affects your bottom line. So, yes, it sucks that the broker makes money on you. If you are making enough that the broker % is not eating up all your profits, then who cares. Later, when you are in a better position you can negotiate with him for better rates. I have no set opinion on how much you give the broker as long as it is not so much that this venture is not profitable.
As far as leasing a seat on the exchange.... get to the point where that questing is really a serious one, then think about it. For now, just concentrate on making enough to make this entire venture worthwhile.


Last edited by Jaguar52; July 22nd, 2013 at 06:24 AM. Reason: anothe thought
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users say Thank You to Jaguar52 for this post:
 
  #74 (permalink)
bRoKeN
Houston, TX/USA
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: Sierra Chart
Broker/Data: Sierra Charts Data Feed
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
Chrismind's Avatar
 
Posts: 68 since May 2013
Thanks: 40 given, 101 received

Jaguar,
I just wanted to thank you for all the time and knowledge you've put into this thread. Tons of priceless information here. The problem, will people listen?....or do they have to learn the hard way? I didn't listen. Now I am

Reply With Quote
 
  #75 (permalink)
 Vendor: protradered.blogspot.com 
NY + NY/USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures- Rithmic
Favorite Futures: CL, 6E
 
Posts: 236 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 11 given, 1,267 received

The strategy of no strategy

With the growing number of automated programs and the increasing programming savvy, exposing definable canned reliable strategies can pollute those strategies and cause them to fail when applied in a larger context. Look at it this way; your strategies work great with the 2 contracts you are trading. Then you move to 4 and it starts to fail more often. There are so many factors that go into a mechanical strategy being successful, that the slightest change can affect it - and it can be either way, negative or positive. Now imagine a lot of people trading the exact same strategy.
Also, trolling pattern sniffers look for activity patterns and that increase in contracts could put you into a new buy/sell pattern that becomes recognizable. Then the trouble begins.
I had a person I was helping and I encouraged them to blog their progress. They were so successful at what they were doing, that I realized it was time for them to stop blogging what they were doing. Today, they have not blogged any more explanatory details, and while they post their entry, exit and results, they have stopped explaining the why and how of it. I think every trader comes to the point where keeping your edge, even the slightest miniscule edge, is important and crucial to maintaining it sharp. So, if you are blogging detailed explanations of what you are doing, and how you are doing it and when, why, etc in a public way; then think deeply about what the fundamental new electronic market is really about and how it is structured.
Maybe I am paranoid, but I think about all the data collection going on around me from my computer browsing patterns, from my cell phone ipod, ipad, cc swipes, and corner cameras; and can you tell me that the electronic market is not capable of this same kind of tracking? How much money is at stake here? Keep in mind that inventory control is not the mass herd of beasts running wild. It is a controlled, manipulated, and calculated exchange event designed to catch the most amount of traders on the wrong side at the right time and on the right side at the wrong time. Distribution is the setup for the real event of accumulation. Tomorrow, that same accumulation becomes distribution, all for the purpose of making money. The giants slug it out, and you and I do our best to follow the stronger, more reliable giants.
The only solution to remaining truly untouchable, to my mind, is when you trade price purely; using dynamic support and resistance, dynamic buy/sell patterns developing in real time as a consequential result of previous events. Often that previous event was a miss-information event, a fake, a ruse to simply enact the trap or give a false view of trend or intention. I tell people to look for the place where the maximum amount of pain can be inflicted on the largest amount of traders. So, as I wait in the shadows, I am looking for the weakest hands and waiting for their demise to start. But I do prey on the weak along side the giants whose coat tails I am trying to hang on to. I am more of a scavenger.
I have no particular strategy except to read price (buy/sell) patters to the left side of the chart, and to keep an unbiased, non opinion, blank minded approach to the incoming tick, and the price bar building at the hard right edge. At all times, I focus on the long, short, and sideways of every price bar, and just wait until a true intention is revealed, or the other possibilities are eliminated. Then I just trade what comes. Most all my 'rules' have little to do with the entry conditions or the exit conditions. Getting in is the easy part. They have to do with how to make money in the trade I am in, regardless of the direction it is going in. I actually don't care what direction it is going in. I trade a strategy of no strategy. But, if I were to define my strategy it is the strategy of not losing money on any trade. So, if money management is a strategy, then that is what I call it.

Reply With Quote
The following 7 users say Thank You to Jaguar52 for this post:
 
  #76 (permalink)
 Vendor: protradered.blogspot.com 
NY + NY/USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures- Rithmic
Favorite Futures: CL, 6E
 
Posts: 236 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 11 given, 1,267 received

Trade what you see ...

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).

Please register on futures.io to view futures trading content such as post attachment(s), image(s), and screenshot(s).


... without wanting to know the future.

It doesn't have to be any more complicated than this.

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to Jaguar52 for this post:
 
  #77 (permalink)
Elite Member
heber city, ut/USA
 
Futures Experience: Beginner
Platform: NinjaTrader
Favorite Futures: Futures
 
tdrogers's Avatar
 
Posts: 16 since Jul 2013
Thanks: 16 given, 3 received


Jaguar52 View Post
BEGIN WITH SIM.
Observe the market for 1 month.
Observe the instrument you are thinking about trading for another month.
Take notes during this period. Begin a journal.
Observe, describe, structure what you see using tools to identify patterns.
Define the patterns by name. Look for the most reoccurring patterns.
Observer those patterns and record each occurrence in detail - when, where, how - and what were you doing? And how did you feel? And what kind of day was it? Did you get a good nights rest? And were you ready to trade? And why are you here?
Observe, describe, structure, define.
After a few months of the above, start to take trades. Record their outcome. Do this for about 50 trades.
Try to repeat your actions each time. Record the results. During this next phase, consider a larger picture of the market you are looking at. Add additional information of volume, location of price, speed of price, time of day, and dynamic changes in direction.
Observe, describe, structure, define, conclude, trade. Record the results. After 6 months of this, analyze your results. If positive, define a structured plan you will call MY TRADE PLAN. For the next 3 months, trade that plan. Record and analyze the results. If positive, begin cash trading. If not, start at the top again until you can get to positive STRICT sim performance results for 3 consecutive months.
CASH
Take 50 trades without changing anything. Examine your results. If positive continue to follow your plan. Otherwise, examine and analyze your results and make changes. Return to sim and test any major change. Otherwise continue with the new tweak.
After 1 year of this, you are in cash or you are still tweaking your plan in and out of sim. You have some options to consider. GET HELP or CONTINUE TO LOSE MONEY or CONTINUE TO TWEAK.
A winning plan makes money. A loosing plan does not. If you are not making money, then you need a fix. If you are making money, but not as much as you would like.... welcome to the club! You are now a real trader.
Continue to grow. If you can spin your wheels then it is only a matter of experience until you grip the road and take off. If you start to loose again.....start at the spot marked CASH above.
Things that you will need to have are:
EDGE - this could be anything from lucky underwear to keen insight. Most commonly this is thorough understanding of how the market exchange system works. Regardless of your trade signal types, unless you have a defined formula based on price consideration foremost, there is no edge.
EXPERIENCE, PATIENCE, DISCIPLINE.
TENSION and STRESS RELEASE MECHANISMS. This could be exercise, whiskey, sex, fast cars, a mirror.
Things that will torment you:
Other traders.
Yourself for getting stopped out to the tick 3 out of 5 trades. Yourself for getting out of your trade without a profit.
Yourself for not getting filled and watching price take off for 40 ticks without an opportunity to get in according to your trade plan.
Yourself for following your trade plan in spite of price hitting S1 to the tick, going sideways for 5 consecutive equal size bars, getting a commitment bar to the upside but not taking the trade because it was not in your plan.
Yourself for not being flexible.
Yourself for not trading concepts and theories relevant to the market type you are trading.
Yourself for not making more money.
Yourself for not taking losers smaller than your winners, or not taking winners larger than your losers. Yourself for not following your trade plan.
Yourself for not knowing.
Yourself for being afraid.
Yourself for being impatient.
Yourself for being too patient.
Yourself, the other winning yourself, yourself from last loosing month.
The market.

The fix is to stop tormenting yourself and go back to the first paragraph. This is a numbers game. This is a capital preservation activity. This is the sum result of a designed approach with realistic loss and win ratios executed over a period of time.
Hope this helps. You can always get drunk on Saturday nights.


This is a great post! Being new to trading, I am planning to use this procedure. It seems like a long time, but will ensure that my account stays open for a long time after I start trading live. Thank you for this insight.

Reply With Quote
The following user says Thank You to tdrogers for this post:
 
  #78 (permalink)
Elite Member
prague, czech republic
 
Futures Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NT7, MT4
Broker/Data: LMAX
Favorite Futures: DAX, Gold, Euro
 
xelaar's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,517 since Feb 2013
Thanks: 1,739 given, 2,592 received

Jaguar, that was a very enlightning reading, as this is pretty much what I have come up with after years of trying to trade trends, patterns, support and resistance, not even mentioning indicators. In the end most reliable and dependable moves and patterns are relatively small and are based on fundamentals of human psyche and mass histeria. Run stops, trap weak hands, jump on the bandwagon.

The only problem with it that I can see is these patterns are in many cases small and will require a lot of size to really keep making money. How do you combat slippage and other execution issues?

Thanks!


Jaguar52 View Post
With the growing number of automated programs and the increasing programming savvy, exposing definable canned reliable strategies can pollute those strategies and cause them to fail when applied in a larger context. Look at it this way; your strategies work great with the 2 contracts you are trading. Then you move to 4 and it starts to fail more often. There are so many factors that go into a mechanical strategy being successful, that the slightest change can affect it - and it can be either way, negative or positive. Now imagine a lot of people trading the exact same strategy.
Also, trolling pattern sniffers look for activity patterns and that increase in contracts could put you into a new buy/sell pattern that becomes recognizable. Then the trouble begins.
I had a person I was helping and I encouraged them to blog their progress. They were so successful at what they were doing, that I realized it was time for them to stop blogging what they were doing. Today, they have not blogged any more explanatory details, and while they post their entry, exit and results, they have stopped explaining the why and how of it. I think every trader comes to the point where keeping your edge, even the slightest miniscule edge, is important and crucial to maintaining it sharp. So, if you are blogging detailed explanations of what you are doing, and how you are doing it and when, why, etc in a public way; then think deeply about what the fundamental new electronic market is really about and how it is structured.
Maybe I am paranoid, but I think about all the data collection going on around me from my computer browsing patterns, from my cell phone ipod, ipad, cc swipes, and corner cameras; and can you tell me that the electronic market is not capable of this same kind of tracking? How much money is at stake here? Keep in mind that inventory control is not the mass herd of beasts running wild. It is a controlled, manipulated, and calculated exchange event designed to catch the most amount of traders on the wrong side at the right time and on the right side at the wrong time. Distribution is the setup for the real event of accumulation. Tomorrow, that same accumulation becomes distribution, all for the purpose of making money. The giants slug it out, and you and I do our best to follow the stronger, more reliable giants.
The only solution to remaining truly untouchable, to my mind, is when you trade price purely; using dynamic support and resistance, dynamic buy/sell patterns developing in real time as a consequential result of previous events. Often that previous event was a miss-information event, a fake, a ruse to simply enact the trap or give a false view of trend or intention. I tell people to look for the place where the maximum amount of pain can be inflicted on the largest amount of traders. So, as I wait in the shadows, I am looking for the weakest hands and waiting for their demise to start. But I do prey on the weak along side the giants whose coat tails I am trying to hang on to. I am more of a scavenger.
I have no particular strategy except to read price (buy/sell) patters to the left side of the chart, and to keep an unbiased, non opinion, blank minded approach to the incoming tick, and the price bar building at the hard right edge. At all times, I focus on the long, short, and sideways of every price bar, and just wait until a true intention is revealed, or the other possibilities are eliminated. Then I just trade what comes. Most all my 'rules' have little to do with the entry conditions or the exit conditions. Getting in is the easy part. They have to do with how to make money in the trade I am in, regardless of the direction it is going in. I actually don't care what direction it is going in. I trade a strategy of no strategy. But, if I were to define my strategy it is the strategy of not losing money on any trade. So, if money management is a strategy, then that is what I call it.


Trade to live. Not live to trade.
Reply With Quote
 
  #79 (permalink)
Elite Member
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: NT8/JIGSAW
Broker/Data: MacQuarie Futures/AMP Clearing/CQG
Favorite Futures: ZB/FGBL/GC/CL/HG/6J/6M/6B/FDAX/NQ
 
xiaosi's Avatar
 
Posts: 483 since Feb 2012
Thanks: 381 given, 440 received

@Jaguar52 , this is a great thread. Its all every new trader should read first. I just found it today...Will be pointing several people in this direction, very well written as well.

Great job!

XS

Reply With Quote
 
  #80 (permalink)
 Vendor: protradered.blogspot.com 
NY + NY/USA
 
Futures Experience: Advanced
Platform: Ninja
Broker/Data: Optimus Futures- Rithmic
Favorite Futures: CL, 6E
 
Posts: 236 since Nov 2009
Thanks: 11 given, 1,267 received



xelaar View Post
Jaguar, that was a very enlightning reading, as this is pretty much what I have come up with after years of trying to trade trends, patterns, support and resistance, not even mentioning indicators. In the end most reliable and dependable moves and patterns are relatively small and are based on fundamentals of human psyche and mass histeria. Run stops, trap weak hands, jump on the bandwagon.

The only problem with it that I can see is these patterns are in many cases small and will require a lot of size to really keep making money. How do you combat slippage and other execution issues?

Thanks!

Yes, that is the big problem with scalping for most instruments. Size increase can affect your success rate as your pattern and size gets on the radar and you are looking for a bigger fill. An instrument like the ES or treasuries can probably handle larger size, but it moves like a snail and it is hard to follow intention and order flow. Since I trade the CL, I hit a wall every time I go in with a 6 lot. So, my solution was to go in with sets of 2 and 1. I will not enter with a lot size larger than 4. Same with the 6E. I go in with sets of 4 and 2. It is the only way I have found to stay off the radars, and still get decent fills on both ends.
Other solutions could be trading closer to the source in Chicago from a server with automated entries. I do not have an auto system that can be programmed to trade dynamic price, so for me, this is not an option. But if you have some decent mechanical strategy this can be an option. Another option is once you have some seed ticks, then find a place to go for a runner. I try to gain 15 ticks first just scalping, then I try for runners. However, I will not turn a winning scalp first target into a losing trade. So, most times I get about 3 or 4 scartches and break evens before I manage to get a runner of more than 15 ticks. Hey, its a jungle.
Hope this helps.

Another thought that really gets me is that many times I get everything right, but cannot account for the 'zombies' who just ruin it because they move their stops too close and make it cost effective for a quick slamming. Since I do not know the future, all I can do is watch to see if price is testing or actually going back for a quick cheap pickup of too close stops. Momentum can be dangerous if too many jump on it, and it becomes too costly to counter it. But, it is fascinating (and frustrating) to see how much traders sabotage themselves with fear (False Evidence Appearing Real).


Last edited by Jaguar52; August 26th, 2013 at 02:40 PM. Reason: another thought
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users say Thank You to Jaguar52 for this post:

Reply



futures io > > > > Take the inexpensive route

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Upcoming Webinars and Events (4:30PM ET unless noted)

Jigsaw Trading: TBA

Elite only

FuturesTrader71: TBA

Elite only

NinjaTrader: TBA

Jan 18

RandBots: TBA

Jan 23

GFF Brokers & CME Group: Futures & Bitcoin

Elite only

Adam Grimes: TBA

Elite only

Ran Aroussi: TBA

Elite only
     


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:23 AM.

Copyright © 2017 by futures io, s.a., Av Ricardo J. Alfaro, Century Tower, Panama, +507 833-9432, info@futures.io
All information is for educational use only and is not investment advice.
There is a substantial risk of loss in trading commodity futures, stocks, options and foreign exchange products. Past performance is not indicative of future results.
no new posts
Page generated 2017-12-16 in 0.20 seconds with 19 queries on phoenix via your IP 54.226.34.209