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Has anyone ever heard of Felton Trading? (www.feltontrading.com)

  #217 (permalink)

Vancouver, BC
Trading Experience: Intermediate
Platform: NinjaTrader
Broker/Data: Amp Futures/CQG and Interactive Brokers
Favorite Futures: ES
exiledgoblin's Avatar
Posts: 65 since Aug 2009
Thanks: 6 given, 15 received

It seems we are condemned to talk past each other. I did not say that I took personal responsibility for all of the students who might have failed my courses and I certainly did not take responsibility for the failures of the shirkers. On the other hand, if most of my students failed then my dean would certainly not have accepted the argument that they were all shirkers.

The analogy between a college degree and career success and success after trader training is limited at best. There is a much tighter connection between training and desired outcome in the case of training traders. But even colleges track their alumni and do statistical correlations between earning a degree and career success. So there is nothing ridiculous about finding out how students make out after college. Its done all the time -- all over the world. In your case it would be trivial to survey your students without demanding brokerage statements. Methinks the mentor doth protest too much and too loudly.

A better analogy would be specific technical training that is skill based. I currently work in the IT industry. Not everyone who takes training from me on large enterprise software systems gets it. But 80% of the people in my courses do pass the course, where the conditions for a pass is the demonstrated capacity to install, configure, and administer the systems in question. Apparently trading is different. Most trading students pay good money for instruction and fail to succeed as traders because by your account they are shirkers. Another serious possibility is that the skills are just not transferable.

The problem with your proposed question is that its a "heads I win tails you lose" proposition. How will we define serious dedicated students? Well they are the one's who succeed, of course. So the answer to your version of a good question is that all of the real, dedicated, committed students succeed and the ones who fail, well they just didn't try.

I'm simply asking a basic statistical question: In a given population we have to assume shirkers, workers, dummies, geniuses and so on. We can gerrymander the results by proclaiming the successful ones as the workers and the rest are the shirkers. But this is a self-serving and self-authenticating argument.

Instead we just do the math: we offer a specific course of study. In this case training in a specific task and methodology. If 5% get it and the others do not some of the failures will be attributable to shirking, etc. Some of the success will be attributable to natural genius, etc. Some of the success will be attributable to the training. But in the end a very low success rate can only be attributable to a knowledge transmission failure. The method is teachable only to a select few and the odds of being among the few are very poor. It's simple mathematics.

No one is suggesting that you don't offer quality instruction. But the evidence seems clear: assuming that you have good software, that your mentoring is first rate, that only some of the failure can be written off as lack of effort and commitment then the conclusion seems obvious -- successful trading can be taught to a select few and investing your money in the unlikely prospect that you will be one of the few (if only you try hard enough) is equivalent to buying a lottery ticket.

rogerf View Post
You are correct, there are no "magic" indicators yet that seems to be what the majority of traders seek. I am always upfront and honest about me and what I do. I teach traders how to trade the system I personally use.

If you think the success of the trading room is about me, that clearly shows you've never been in the room or paid attention to the student chat.

As a former college professor, I'm intrigued that students who sign up for your class...who have no desire to learn...who refuse to study...who won't do the work or complete assignments....students who won't let you help them even though you make yourself available during most afternoon, evenings, weekends and holidays and (surprise!) fail your course, their failure is all your fault?? You would be fired if you stated otherwise? That's an incredible statement.

Ok, so we're fair, I need for you to give me the exact percentage of your students who took your course and went out into the work world and became a success. I would submit that you have no way of determining that nor does any other professor I know of. Do you see the ridiculousness of what you are asking?

I not only teach my trading method inside and out, I teach traders everything I know about trading. I consider that to be my solemn duty. They know exactly what I look for, why I look for it and what I do once I act on it. I verbalize my every thought during every moment I'm in a trade. I withhold nothing. There are no secrets.

But learning is work...and lots of it. Magic indicator seekers aren't going to buckle down and do the work until they realize that their fantasy quest is futile. I've had students who "failed" and then tried again...and again...and then finally got it. Not because the system was complicated to learn, but because they didn't have the discipline to trade successfully. When I would go over their trades with them, I didn't have to point out their mistakes to them, they'd point them out to me. They knew exactly what to do and their fear prevented them from doing it. They were allowing that fear to sabotage their success.

You seem to assume that traders who failed did so because they didn't receive the knowledge they needed to succeed. That perhaps I was teaching a methodology that only I could understand and follow. I suggest that you come in to the trading room and present that question to the students. I think their answers might surprise you.

I don't make students send in reports to me or copies of their trading statements. I tell them to be sure and let me know if they have any problem whatsoever. That's all I can do. I can tell you that, in my opinion, more students fail, at least initially, than succeed. Most traders are also unwilling to do the hard work necessary. I contend there's a connection. I can give the knowledge but I can't force anyone to learn it. If you're looking for an easy ride, this isn't it. We're more comprehensive with more depth than any other course I know of.

So I think the more appropriate question would be, "Of the serious traders who have the passion to work hard, attend the trainings, ask for help and not give up, how many succeed?" The answer would be easy...nearly all of them. Unlike college, trading is a course where you either get an "A" or an "F". There's nothing in between. I don't make the rules, the market does.

Last edited by exiledgoblin; November 30th, 2011 at 02:37 AM.
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